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How poverty changes your mindset

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491–500 of 559 posts

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under libertarianism, there's no law against communes. You can set one up!

And if a hypothetical commune became dominant and an existential threat to the existence of a hypothetical libertarian society? The Communist Party of the Philippines operates as a parallel government in many respects, do you think that should be allowed? The Zapatistas? It's misleading to say that it would be a-ok to start a socialist society in a libertarian society. It (like many aspects of libertarian analysis, i…

It's not misleading. Hundreds (thousands?) of communes have been set up in the US. As far as I know, nobody has tried to shut them down. Nobody is stopping you from joining an existing one. You can find them via Google.

More to the point, the notion that communes are a threat to libertarianism is flat out false. Libertarianism is about freedom to associate with and do business with people as you please. That includes pooling ones' interests in a commune.

What you cannot do under libertarianism is force someone to join, or prevent someone from leaving.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resources are unevenly distributed. Like, why don't the homeless all just pool their resources and buy a house?

Seattle votes heavily Democrat. There's only a tiny fraction of them in Seattle that are homeless.

It's an extreme illustration of a principle that holds at many different levels.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#493
post #436

This is why I endorse https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21731626-case-taxing-...

We already have an issue with business consolidation in the US and the decline of small businesses, I would be wary about anything that might contribute to it, as an inheritance tax might.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#494
post #412
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The true premise of capitalism is that a person can own the rights to the exploration of natural resources, most commonly land. Everything else is compounded abstraction. I used to think it was more 'artificial' than it really is; but in fact it seems "natural" that people who lived for a long while in a piece of land deserve the right to keep it; and it also seems "natural" that through force you can take and keep l…

Agreed. I would like to see more people approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and move forward trying to improve it(capitalism). Unfortunately, there's still a lot of stigma(in the US).

> a lot of stigma

That's because forcible communism's track record is simply horrific. You can create or join a commune as you please, I have no problem with that. But when you try to force people into one, or prevent them from leaving, a lot of people are going to fight you.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.

True, if we're talking about poor ol' Hayek and Rothbard... but Ayn Rand discourages it and she's the standard bearer. Interestingly, I always found the aesthetics, philosophy, methods of Randianism quite Stalinist.

Rand doesn't represent libertarianism. You'll get a far more accurate version if you read Friedman's books one economics.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution. Unfortunately the overall national trend has been funding cuts, with the irony being that it doesn't save money overall; since the costs are just shifted over to hospitals and other emergenc…

Those living on the streets with severe mental issues probably don’t want to be in a mental institution. And unless they’re a danger to themselves or others (and not just in the sense of making bad life decisions), they can’t be held against their will. This is a free country.

  > And unless they’re a danger to themselves or others (and
  > not just in the sense of making bad life decisions), they
  > can’t be held against their will.
Technically if somebody suffers from a mental illness, including addiction, they could be forced off the street. In fact, refusing housing and other assistance to live in patently unsanitary conditions could, per se, be construed as evidence of incapacity.

We just choose not to. AFAIU, the Supreme Court decisions in the 1970s that, arguably, precipitated the dismantling of the archaic mental health institutions never even came close to suggesting that such people couldn't be forced off the street. For example, in the famous case of O'Connor v. Donaldson the patient, Donaldson, had actually been living in an apartment of his own in Philadelphia. He traveled to Florida to visit his parents, and it was his parents who had him committed after he shared paranoid delusions about his neighbors in Philadelphia. I've seen people use that case to argue against forcing people off the streets as-if we had no legal choice, but it's just plain wrong. Donaldson wasn't living on the streets; his ramblings notwithstanding he was clearly capable of taking care of himself, and in any event the case was never about his initial confinement but his continued confinement 15 years later.

We choose to let people live on the streets because we've somehow internalized the perverse logic that to do otherwise would result in a tyrannic state oppressing the mentally ill. (Myths about SCOTUS opinions come into being to bolster the logic.) That such an approach happens to require little or no budget outlays while simultaneously absolving us from moral blame is, I'm sure, merely coincidental....

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it sure is difficult for folks to save when they are working their butts off to pay crazy rent/mortgage and sky high medical/dental so they can stay healthy to work...plus college and grad school loans that got them the low paying job in the first place (although they went to school to have an actual profession which would have covered these expenses but doesn't come close anymore) all in a city where there are s…

No one forced anyone into taking loans or living in places with expensive rent. Just because someone—erm, our whole culture—lied to you and you took the bait, doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. That’s how freedom works. It requires individuals to know, to teach their kids not to take loans from creeps (aka basically all loans), not to believe nonsense mantras like the value of higher education. Just because Barack Oba…

> Just because someone—erm, our whole culture—lied to you and you took the bait, doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. That’s how freedom works.

This sentence is contradictory: since individuals are told these lies/take this bait when they're minors--ie, not 'free' in any legal sense--they in fact are off the hook. When most minors, particularly those closer to the left-hand side of the privilege bell curve, do not have parents with the necessary social/economic background to teach them 'not to take loans from creeps', they are precluded from assessments such as the above.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#498
post #412
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The true premise of capitalism is that a person can own the rights to the exploration of natural resources, most commonly land. Everything else is compounded abstraction. I used to think it was more 'artificial' than it really is; but in fact it seems "natural" that people who lived for a long while in a piece of land deserve the right to keep it; and it also seems "natural" that through force you can take and keep l…

Agreed. I would like to see more people approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and move forward trying to improve it(capitalism). Unfortunately, there's still a lot of stigma(in the US).

The Marxist critique of capitalism includes critique of the capacity for improvement within capitalism; you seem to want people to approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and then ignore key parts of that critique.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The malthusian argument. People outgrow their capacity to feed themselves. Good thing it is not true at all, and has been debunked and ridiculed by economists over a century ago.

Debunked by economists who are the joke of the Nobel laureates. Even the Peace prize is more respectable. 100 years in human history? Nothing. The Roman Empire took half a millennium to decay. The Malthusian argument is a thermodynamic argument. If we grow without bound (either by number or per capita consumption) we will run out of resources like any other biological system. The only thing that allows us to escape t…

Right, because food today is more expensive than food yesterday, since we are growing so much outside our means, we are clearly consuming all the natural resources and devouring each other for that last piece of corn.

Human behavior is not thermodynamics. To the very least, the day were all the resources in the universe have been consumed by its living beings is so far away that it is absolutely irrelevant and inapplicable to our society.

Malthusian economics are garbage.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're angry already. Can you explain what's fueling your indignation?

The anger comes from, in personal experience, being taken out of society by things outside of your control, and whenever you ask for help being treated like a lazy beggar who has a lot of nerve even asking to survive. It comes from seeing the same "if I can help let me know" responses over and over that are really like "lets get lunch" statements and never result in actual help. Then when you get more depressed and u…

You're welcome to live a cynical life, walking around thinking everyone is bad and no one wants to truly help.
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