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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#331

Post by hycaria »

haZard_OS wrote: post #97
bojackstorkman wrote: post #30

I love how when this comes up, it's people either saying "Here was my experience when I was poor in the past." or "Here is what I think about economics or the wording of this article." Don't get me wrong, I know what website I'm on. But in all seriousness, is there room for currently poor people in this discussion?

Without going into too much detail: I am exactly one semester away from a degree in the natural sciences but can no longer afford to attend classes - I am a single father with 3 children (two of which live with me) and I pay child support every month to my ex-wife who makes ~$80K per annum. I played her way through graduate school but she left and we divorced very soon after she finished school. I am almost 40 years…

Maybe you should've gotten a vasectomy at some point. Children are nothing but a dragdown when you're precarious.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#332

Post by woliveirajr »

pm90 wrote: post #259
dizzystar wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I totally get this. I have no idea why people want stuff. I have one computer, one phone, one guitar, and so on. If I could own just one set of clothing, I'd be happy with that. It isn't frugality for me, it's just that I can't stand clutter and really, what I consider. I think I missed whatever the definition of having things means.

I guess it depends on you knowing what you want. I wouldn't drop money on a spanking new car even though I can afford to and all my peers drive Audis or whatever, but I feel just OK with my over 100k Civic just because I like not having a loan on my head. I didn't get the latest iPhone (still on the 5s) because a beautiful new phone means nothing to me; I'm just fine with a less expensive, smaller and slower model. O…

:) and, to some extent, this is kind of funny, because where I live having a Civic is a sign that you do have a expensive car, and people treat it like "just more 10k bucks and you could be in an Audi".

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#333

Post by RobertRoberts »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #303
RobertRoberts wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately taking risks to better yourself and having it work out are the exception not the rule. And I have to assume that a non-socialist society supports this better in almost every way, based on historical evidence in my own head. (flawed as that may be)

Not taking risks (doing nothing) will never "work out". Those who do not have the capital cannot take risks in the first place.

Is it not possible to make something "work out" without taking risks? A quote from the olden (perhaps wiser) days, was "don't quit your day job", has this sage advice been lost?

Unless we are going to avoid widely classifing a "risk" as something "scary" or "hard", then isn't changing jobs risky?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#335

Post by Skye »

dvtv75 wrote: post #223
jjeaff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

Something to consider: On HN a few weeks back, I read someone's comment that some poor people are poor because they own cheap cars that cost a fortune in repairs because they're always breaking down, preventing them from saving up for a better one that won't need repaired so often, which would allow them to save and get ahead. Maybe that's not always the kind of decision-making that keeps you poor after all.

Sounds like the "Sam Vimes 'Boots' theory of economic injustice", from the Discworld novels.

https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Sam_Vimes_Theory_of_Econom... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vimes#Boots_theory_of_soci...

I don't knnow how accurate it is, but it does make sense for some things, such as shoes, and thinking about it, train tickets (season tickets are better value for money but very expensive), and essentially anything where bulk/long term is better value, but only being affordable to some people, and I think the space to store things comes into play as well...

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#336

Post by tmnvix »

tensor_rank_0 wrote: post #239
tmnvix wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you listed a bunch of advantages of wealth that I dont think anyone would dispute. and you talk about taking that away. That is a non sequitur.

I don't understand what you mean.

GP suggested that a redistribution of resources could allow the poorer section of society to engage in the type of risky behaviour that often results in financial success. You then assumed that this means depriving wealthier people of the ability to engage in that sort of behaviour. That isn't a logical consequence. You seem to be assuming that any redistribution will deprive wealthier people of these opportunities which is obviously not true. For instance, GP might be suggesting that only the wealthiest 1% should be required to make a sacrifice for the benefit of the poor.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#337

Post by gota »

tjr225 wrote: post #247
rboyd wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"our wealth"?

Some of us disagree very strongly with the premise of capitalism.

The true premise of capitalism is that a person can own the rights to the exploration of natural resources, most commonly land. Everything else is compounded abstraction. I used to think it was more 'artificial' than it really is; but in fact it seems "natural" that people who lived for a long while in a piece of land deserve the right to keep it; and it also seems "natural" that through force you can take and keep land regardless of who 'deserves' its. Not good, maybe, but natural.

My point is that if these things are natural, it is likely that we'd reach a similar structure if we started from scratch.

I don't really think that the true premise of capitalism is going away until we reach a Star Trek post-scarcity level of wealth. I do think we can - and should - combat the ill-effects that come from the exercise of a capitalist system for billions of people.

I think we need to make it better, not a do over

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#338

Post by Phronux »

hycaria wrote: post #318
Phronux wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else could've said that having a roof over one's head, a computer and a fast internet connection are laughable suggestions - why would you care about them, when you can spend money on traveling around the world and the internet connection is usually all over the places for free? I actually worry about not having enough vacation, because experiencing other people's cultures and mindsets are the most important…

>I actually worry about not having enough vacation, because experiencing other people's cultures and mindsets are the most important things to me. What else would I really need? Ah yes, the infamous two weeks where for a huge GHG release, we can experience other cultures and come back home changed.

I'm actually from Poland where I've negotiated at least 6 weeks of paid vacation. When combined with some national holidays I usually end up with 2 months a year of paid vacations. Not counting weekends.

I know my priorities and I've optimized my work/life balance for them.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#339

Post by zubairlk »

I had a time in my life where I constantly used the calculator app on my phone.

salary - rent - transport - food * 30 I was blessed enough to have education, a social support circle, a safety net from parents, and some growth to look forward to. Despite that, the stress caused almost daily headaches.

Its a vicious cycle.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#340

Post by apatters »

stephen_g wrote: post #204
kccqzy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage only really encourages businesses to hire fewer people and train those fewer people to do more and be more productive, if not to raise prices. There are many small bookstores and mom-and-pop stores that are going to be closed when the minimum wage is raised because they literally can’t raise prices any more or hire fewer people. That’s why in some other countries, instead of a minimum wage, which is the…

To some degree there will be cases like that, but that is not really what happens on a macro level though. In aggregate, there tends to be no statistical correlation between the minimum wage level and employment levels. Companies try to be efficient, so they try not to have any more or less people than they need (based mostly on demand). The desire to pay as few people to do as much work as possible always exists. Hi…

What's your source for this? If there's no statistical correlation between the minimum wage and the unemployment rate (and I thought I had read otherwise) then I suspect the statistics aren't telling the whole story.

Your explanation of what's going on at the micro level contradicts my experience as a business owner who's been signing paychecks for many years. All businesses have inefficiencies, and in general the larger the check, the more scrutiny the expense will receive. Internally this manifests as having higher expectations for a higher paid employee, and prioritizing automation, offshoring, or other business decisions when labor costs get too high. Externally, when we expand our relationship with a client, we fully expect that it will receive more scrutiny from various stakeholders at the company simply because the check getting written to us is bigger, even if we deliver proportionately more value.

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