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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#251

Post by BuckRogers »

dvtv75 wrote: post #223
jjeaff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

Something to consider: On HN a few weeks back, I read someone's comment that some poor people are poor because they own cheap cars that cost a fortune in repairs because they're always breaking down, preventing them from saving up for a better one that won't need repaired so often, which would allow them to save and get ahead. Maybe that's not always the kind of decision-making that keeps you poor after all.

I don't buy that argument outright. I have a six figure savings account and six fig investments going on in my mid 30s earned on my lonesome in the low-wage midwest, and I've always been taken advantage of here on top of it (low paid even for here). Frugality is my game because I care not about materialism. I believe one has to have a brain the size of a pea, to be impressed by someone's possessions. I coudln't care less about someone having a Mercedes. The Europeans have the right idea, being a big spender is actually extremely tacky and anti-social in my view.

One of my cars is terrible (2000 Mazda). I waste, but not much. I'm repairing it quite often. A single $500 repair is one (very cheap) car payment on a new one. I'm way ahead keeping the old beast going. I can replace the whole car 3 to 6 times over before I get to the price of a new one.

What I do pay with is inconvenience and my time to drag it into the shop. That's value too, but purely financial costs I'm winning.

Overall in the end, I'm going to pickup a cheap (15K), affordable car to replace it with. Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra range of vehicles. At those prices, the financial gain is outweighed by convenience for me. So we all "have a price". At least until more of those Tesla Model 3's have been out a while, I'll spend more than I normally would on one of those beauties. :)

A lot of people say it's not worth fixing a car that's worth less than the repair. I disagree, it's money in vs money out. Same concept as calories in calories out. Obviously, the comment you quoted would be correct when you start dealing with outliers/extremes. There's money pits, then there's real money pits.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#252

Post by WovenTales »

chaostheory wrote: post #118
braderhart wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing your story. I feel so much empathy towards you and your family, and I'm sorry to hear about your father feeling so bitter towards the system afterwards. I don't blame him. When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love. I see people that need to be taken in, not just for a night, but for a year or longer... so they can stop stressing a…

> When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution. Unfortunately the overall national trend has been funding cuts, with the irony being that it doesn't save money overall; since the costs are just shifted over to hospitals and other emergenc…

Some, maybe. Others live perfectly happily without being alone in their heads. I know a story or two about people for whom just talking with the voices was the way they found themselves again. Sure there are people who can't deal with another constant presence or who have deeper issues to work out, but saying that everyone who's part of a plural system needs institutional help is part of the feedback loop that makes them reject their headmates and so need institutional help finding solitude. The key is finding a way to a stable life, not finding a way to a single life.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#253

Post by BuckRogers »

nine_k wrote: post #168
braderhart wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I resonate the feeling and agree that people need to also take responsibility, however I see people all the time making poor choices, and it isn't just poor people. If you're down on your luck, that $6 coffee ritual may be not sound so bad at the moment. Someone who is exhausted, and probably malnourished (surprisingly common in America), will say to themselves... I'm craving a delicious coffee and hopefully it'll gi…

You're exactly describing how an irrational spending is hard to shake off, even at the moment when you need every dime. Rational thinking under stress is hard. It can be a trap, and often is.

That's why I try to maintain the same lifestyle no matter how much I do or don't have. Once you adjust your spending habits, it's very difficult to change them. I just think out what makes sense, how far I have to be happy, then build a routine around sensible choices. Half of the time, the sensible choices are the healthiest anyway (like taking lunch to work vs fattening fast food). Nailed it on the head that rational thinking under stress is hard, so people should get their affairs in order when they get a lull in life where they can step back and setup a healthy (financially & otherwise) routine.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#254

Post by dizzystar »

RandomCSGeek wrote: post #246
dizzystar wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in poverty as well and my reaction to money is the total opposite. I never felt connected to it all. I want to be a good saver, but my understanding of the green stuff is nearly nil. It's just sort of there and I try not to think about it. I think it's just the opposite problem. I simply don't know what to spend money on. I feel like I spend a lot of money, but somehow everyone is in deeper debt than I am.…

During my childhood, my father's most of the income went into repaying loans. Luckily, we had our own house, so we didn't need to worry about getting homeless. But I remember I rarely got to spend money on any kind of "luxury". By luxury, I mean simple stuff like a icecream cone or a baloon. The effect it had on me is quite wierd. On one hand, I always wish to earn more so as to not have to go through that phase agai…

Yeah, I totally get this. I have no idea why people want stuff. I have one computer, one phone, one guitar, and so on. If I could own just one set of clothing, I'd be happy with that.

It isn't frugality for me, it's just that I can't stand clutter and really, what I consider. I think I missed whatever the definition of having things means.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#255

Post by wwweston »

hueving wrote: post #205
runako wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this modulo American healthcare means a lot of people who follow this script still end up with nothing. This is especially the case for entry-level jobs and other careers that are more available to the newly arrived. If you work in a median-income job and are miserly for a long time and save up a year's income, you will have around $60k in the bank. Since you don't have a pension, materially all of this will b…

>But this has not been the case except for the last 7ish years, Useful health insurance existed before the ACA.

Sure.

It shared the market with a lot more useless health insurance, and whether the useful plans were actually available to any given individual was not necessarily a function of how hardworking and conscientious they were.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#256

Post by BuckRogers »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #169
autokad wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i grew up poor, and it was frustrating to see the stupid mistakes my family and people around me would make over, and over, and over. then people like the researchers in this article say infuriating things like 'their bad decisions are just because they are cognitively tired, and actually many of them could be even considered shrewd!" being cognitively tired does play a role, but more so because they are cognitively…

> but more so because they are cognitively lazy. Do you have any data, studies, or real references as to why this is, or do you simply call them lazy to feel better about yourself? You've clearly outlined a trend-are we really to believe that the poor are simply more cognitively lazy than every other population? That is why they are poor? Quite the claim.

It seemed that he was talking about himself or his own family. So I took that as an anecdote. I doubt he relishes bashing his own family but called it like he believes he sees it.

My stance is close to what you're getting at. I don't think they're purposefully lazy most of the time. Though I agree with the OP that some have to be, there's no way. I'm intellectually lazy oftentimes, why wouldn't a discouraged, down on their luck poor person be? Makes zero sense that they wouldn't.

Being paid less and less in my life, while others around me make more, has been extremely demotivating. I can't imagine how the life gets sucked out of people with lesser will-power than others have.

I think it's not a claim that some people simply can't be bothered to go to school and better themselves. They just don't care. It's either stemming from their psychological profile, childhood abuse, or other factors that took down their motivation and self-esteem. They're giving themselves what they deserve, in their mind, accepted their social status.

Many of us do it. I accepted that I'm "working class" long ago and strongly identify with it. Even forgoing clothing that is outside of my class status. I'm a sturdy rural guy that even though I live in one of the largest cities in the US, prefer my blue jeans and work shirts (old fashioned Scottish plaid button ups for a country boy like myself) with work boots (think a black pair of Doc Martens). So I can completely see how others adopt their possibly lower socio-economic status as well. I like mine, it's part of my identity and I'm comfortable in my own skin that way. Maybe they are too, even if it doesn't benefit them.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#257

Post by Tasboo »

I grew up in poverty. My dad is fortunately able to get tuition assistance through the Native American tribe he is a member of. With that assistance, he was able to graduate law school and become a lawyer. As soon as he did that and got his first job as an attorney, our lives changed dramatically. My fondest memory of that time was buying brand new clothes. That never happened before, at least not that I can remember. I was so amazing to wear clothes that weren't hand me downs that were initially purchased used from a thrift store.

The thing is, even with the tuition assistance, both of my parents had to work double shifts almost constantly to keep food on the table. I have many memories of my siblings and I coming home to an empty house in elementary school because my parents would be out working their ass off for us. Most weeks I wouldn't see them until the weekend. Now, as adults, my siblings and I are now living well enough in middle class.

Government programs and assistance for the poor can fail and can be taken advantage of by people who would rather squander that assistance, no doubt, but that doesn't mean all people are like that. It can and does work, but even with assistance, it is not enough. My dad was very fortunate to have a tuition free ride through law school, and we as a family were fortunate enough not to run into anything that derailed his desire or ability to finish law school. Without that tuition assistance, I doubt he could have secured the loans that were needed. Simply cutting assistance programs will not make poor people to 'get back to work' and dig themselves out of poverty. It was next to impossible to do so when I was growing up and it is even worse now.

Can those programs be better? Yes. Should we cut them because they aren't the best? Absolutely not. Please.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#258

Post by dizzystar »

mrep wrote: post #221
kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

> The poor and destitute simply need help. Upvote for the story but "simply need help" is not a policy a government can use to solve the problem. Granted, solving this problem for everyone is nigh impossible but maybe you can give us an example of a policy that would have helped out your individual family to give us some ideas?

Studies have shown that it would be cheaper to simply house people than the wild hoops they have to jump through.

Helping the poor is big business, which creates a backwards incentive structure. No one is willing to press these companies to the wall, but hey, they can have rewards ceremonies and drive nice cars. They must be doing something great with all those accolades even though more dead bodies are dumped in the bay each year, right?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#259

Post by pm90 »

dizzystar wrote: post #254
RandomCSGeek wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During my childhood, my father's most of the income went into repaying loans. Luckily, we had our own house, so we didn't need to worry about getting homeless. But I remember I rarely got to spend money on any kind of "luxury". By luxury, I mean simple stuff like a icecream cone or a baloon. The effect it had on me is quite wierd. On one hand, I always wish to earn more so as to not have to go through that phase agai…

Yeah, I totally get this. I have no idea why people want stuff. I have one computer, one phone, one guitar, and so on. If I could own just one set of clothing, I'd be happy with that. It isn't frugality for me, it's just that I can't stand clutter and really, what I consider. I think I missed whatever the definition of having things means.

I guess it depends on you knowing what you want. I wouldn't drop money on a spanking new car even though I can afford to and all my peers drive Audis or whatever, but I feel just OK with my over 100k Civic just because I like not having a loan on my head. I didn't get the latest iPhone (still on the 5s) because a beautiful new phone means nothing to me; I'm just fine with a less expensive, smaller and slower model.

OTOH, If I see nice clothes or shoes I definitely do consider getting them if I don't have something similar already, or different enough from existing clothes to give a different look. I won't say no to a road trip, or a weekend trip with my gf/friends. Or to eating at a fancy restaurant occasionally.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#260

Post by dizzystar »

Simon_says wrote: post #230
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume someone can HAVE savings? I live in a Texas city. Rent here for a 2 bedroom apartment is over $1K a month. If you're a single mother of 2, you can expect $500 a month for EBT if you make $9 an hour. So after you get through paying your taxes, social security, medicare, etc... you're stuck with pocket change (that still has to go to electricity, gas for the car / maintenance) and use EBT to pay for y…

I think, but I'm not sure, that at her income level, the Earned Income Tax Credit will let her get a net refund from the federal government? And Texas doesn't tax income. Savings have to come from the biggest choices in your life. You've already assumed a bunch of poor choices in your model of this hypothetical person. You didn't mention your city, but I found $400-500 2 bedroom apartments on a quick Craigslist searc…

But also, she will have to work a second job because no one gives full time work at that pay level. That's the brutal cost of ACA.
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