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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#201

Post by Consultant32452 »

kraig911 wrote: post #178
52-6F-62 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a little in common, though the events of my own life occurred a little differently. We moved to a small rural town when I was young out of fears that my father’s work for an oil company’s union (refinery construction and maintenance) would place him out of jurisdiction where we were. He is and was a very talented fitter/welder and has even taught courses in college. He did however spend most of the best years…

The hardest argument that I hate about the article in question. I will never stop living like tomorrow I could lose everything. I will forever keep some cash stashed a way. I will always keep canned chili in the cupboard. Every thunderstorm or inclement weather event I fill the bathtub up. Some may say "oh that's good that you do that" but to my wife it's border line paranoia.

I've read a bunch of personal finance books and I found that they recommend 3-6 months of expenses in savings as an "emergency fund." Of course, they usually mean in a bank, I don't know how literally you mean "cash." But if you have less than 3 months worth of expenses stashed, you're living somewhat precariously. The general population is absolutely terrible with money, so I would recommend taking random peoples' opinion on savings with a grain of salt. This is the internet, so take mine with a grain of salt too. It's worth doing your own research from experts.

I don't know how much canned chili you keep, but FEMA recommends keeping at least a 3 day supply of non-perishable food on hand. I don't think FEMA has a reputation for having borderline paranoia.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#202

Post by Consultant32452 »

mcphage wrote: post #192
skookumchuck wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.

> Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to. What’s the political philosophy that means you can help others as much as they need? Maybe we should talk about that one more.

With the operative word being "can" there, it's still libertarianism.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#203

Post by [deleted] »

mcphage wrote: post #192
skookumchuck wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.

> Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to. What’s the political philosophy that means you can help others as much as they need? Maybe we should talk about that one more.

[deleted]

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#204

Post by stephen_g »

kccqzy wrote: post #86
NegativeLatency wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone needs college, there are trade schools and the like that can help you get a better job. Why can’t minimum wage be raised to provide a better standard of living?

Minimum wage only really encourages businesses to hire fewer people and train those fewer people to do more and be more productive, if not to raise prices. There are many small bookstores and mom-and-pop stores that are going to be closed when the minimum wage is raised because they literally can’t raise prices any more or hire fewer people. That’s why in some other countries, instead of a minimum wage, which is the…

To some degree there will be cases like that, but that is not really what happens on a macro level though. In aggregate, there tends to be no statistical correlation between the minimum wage level and employment levels. Companies try to be efficient, so they try not to have any more or less people than they need (based mostly on demand). The desire to pay as few people to do as much work as possible always exists. Higher minimum wages may put some extra emphasis on this, but it's likely that the extra demand from consumers having more income balances this out.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#205

Post by hueving »

runako wrote: post #159
linkmotif wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people us…

All of this modulo American healthcare means a lot of people who follow this script still end up with nothing. This is especially the case for entry-level jobs and other careers that are more available to the newly arrived. If you work in a median-income job and are miserly for a long time and save up a year's income, you will have around $60k in the bank. Since you don't have a pension, materially all of this will b…

>But this has not been the case except for the last 7ish years,

Useful health insurance existed before the ACA.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#206

Post by analyst74 »

kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

American poverty sounds so different from Chinese poverty.

I grew up during the tail years of communism and everybody was dirt poor. The interesting thing is, nobody was financially stressed, starvation and homelessness was not a thing. I ended up developing an abundance mentality and terrible money management skills.

Looking even further back, my parents experienced the height of policy stupidity and barely survived the great famine which killed millions. It scarred them for life, but also pushed them to make more money and live frugally even after achieving financial security.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#207

Post by throwaway1748 »

so33 wrote: post #193
throwaway1748 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, I find that successful people are culturally un-welcome in the conversation today. It's considered presumptive or 'privileged' to give advice on how to be self-reliant and grow wealth. Culturally this is happening in a number of areas. Victimhood has become such a powerful status to claim that we increasingly refuse to listen to so-called 'privileged' voice, regardless of how solid their advice may be.

One of the top posts in this very comments section at the moment contradicts your claim.

Not seeing the comment you're referring to. But my point is that a broader cultural phenomenon is occurring where successful folks are demonized and individual accomplishments are considered more a function of one's 'privilege' than hard work.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#208

Post by MisterBastahrd »

linkmotif wrote: post #99
kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people us…

Why do you assume someone can HAVE savings?

I live in a Texas city. Rent here for a 2 bedroom apartment is over $1K a month. If you're a single mother of 2, you can expect $500 a month for EBT if you make $9 an hour. So after you get through paying your taxes, social security, medicare, etc... you're stuck with pocket change (that still has to go to electricity, gas for the car / maintenance) and use EBT to pay for your food.

Please spare the empathy bit. When you're working odd shifts, you KNOW the kids will eat the pizza rolls, so you buy the damned pizza rolls.

But let's say single mom gets a $4 raise. Guess what happens? EBT evaporates. Completely. Not only that, but she starts getting charged $160+ a month for the daycare that she sends her kids to so that she can work those odd hours. $3 more bucks? Her daycare subsidy evaporates. She's making $16 an hour, but now she can't afford to pay her bills.

Yeah, please lecture us again on why they can't save money.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#209

Post by [deleted] »

analyst74 wrote: post #206
kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

American poverty sounds so different from Chinese poverty. I grew up during the tail years of communism and everybody was dirt poor. The interesting thing is, nobody was financially stressed, starvation and homelessness was not a thing. I ended up developing an abundance mentality and terrible money management skills. Looking even further back, my parents experienced the height of policy stupidity and barely survived…

[deleted]

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#210

Post by eanzenberg »

wildmusings wrote: post #191
AaronFriel wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems you think that either mental institutions are unfixable, or you have a very poor sense of the harms of say, untreated schizophrenia. This may be a free country, but we shouldn't use that to neglect our duty to our neighbors.

That’s not what I’m saying. We most definitely should offer mental care to people who need it, regardless of ability to pay. My point is simply that many of them don’t want it, and we can’t force it on them.

This is an extremely philosophical dilemma.. thanks for pointing it out to me.
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