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Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

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Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#121

Post by vanilla_nut »

dzdt wrote: post #77
vanilla_nut wrote: post #43

As a graduate of a very rural American school (to give you an idea, my entire pre-k through 12th grade school was housed in a single building, with below 500 kids total; my graduating class was just over 30 students, and I was one of 3 who went on to a 4-year school -- fewer than 10 of us went to any college at all)... this article isn't very good. Like some other commenters have pointed out, the author failed to int…

I had a similar experiencee to you, but more positive. My school was about half the size of yours. I did senior year classes at the community college. My parents pushed the school board on this, and the district covered most or all of the tuition. Community college class credits transferred straight across to university, which not all AP classes do, so I came out ahead there. Some things the article misses: in rural…

Examples and parents are definitely crucial. My parents didn't conceive of applying anywhere but state schools In my anecdotal experience, a lot of families in my hometown area were living well beyond their means anyway, with lots of kids on a single blue-collar salary, a car for each adult and each >16 y/o kid, and vacations to Disney or cruises once or twice a year... so I don't have a sense of a culture of avoiding loans and debt. Even the farmers have been forced into the consumer debt cycle to stay solvent, buying new equipment and expensive animals to keep their tax burdens low but never saving anything for poor economic conditions. I think most kids I grew up with just didn't even see college as an option, since they didn't enjoy learning in the first place.

It's odd to think that most of these kids didn't even bother with vocational schools, as a lot of them are currently slaving away at minimum wage retail/food service jobs.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#122

Post by gnicholas »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #110

This author takes for granted that rural students are politically compatible with college campuses. They're not. All the barriers to attending and graduating college are severely aggravated when the people you'll be around at college do not share and cannot relate to your life experiences or values and a significant fraction of whom will see you as a backwards hick.

I was also surprised that the article didn't address this very real issue. It started to talk about the "cultural" aspect, but it didn't mention politics except to note that rural areas were more pro-Trump than suburban areas. Bizarre that the author didn't put 2 and 2 together and consider that perhaps people who chose Trump over Clinton might not want to go to mostly-liberal ivory towers.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#123

Post by vanilla_nut »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduated fairly recently)

College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself, and people generally thought I was a responsible kid growing up. I finally found myself in a place where I could make friends who shared interests with me who I truly wanted to interact with, and many of those friendships evolved into mentors or mentees. TAing, challenging classwork, and living for the first time on my own really forced me to mature and take charge of my future.

Of course, I could just be a late bloomer, or maybe my STEM interests and particular rural community made my situation unique. But I don't think I'm the only one in my generation who feels this way.

I agree that college is probably not appropriate for your average kid, but for the kind of kids who enjoy learning, who aspire to do something challenging for a career, I think higher learning is indispensable. It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#124

Post by huac »

zdragnar wrote: post #104
throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

It's not even just the utility of the degree, it's the cost. Investing $20-100k plus four to 8 years lost work experience (depending on number of degrees) is, for most living in rural communities, an extreme luxury. Considering the economic gap between metropolitan areas and rural communities, pretty much any degree not directly related to work preparation and placement is a luxury good that few can afford.

Most elite universities have income-based financial aid and going to one could easily conceivably be cheaper or at least on par with going to a state school. Of course one big problem is that rural students don't know that

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#125

Post by QuarterReptile »

hermitdev wrote: post #108
bllguo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the perspective. And because of things like this, rural folk don't want "our" help. They fall further behind, become more insular and hateful. Self-reinforcing cycle. Solving these problems is extremely important and will likely involve harsh tradeoffs. Unfortunately, in the US it feels like we need some dramatic examples before people will finally accept that tradeoffs are necessary.

Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong. Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense. It's not…

Thank you, this is more in keeping with what I meant (though I might have done a clearer job saying it.) The place I have in mind is admittedly denser than what you describe, and is in many ways the worst of both worlds, but I think the lessons are similar. My home town is one of two 20,000 person towns in a 1000mi^2 county of 120k. Any time you have the combination of major repairs needed at schools and budget shortfalls at either the town schools or the county schools, the idea of consolidation gets floated around. My hometown is a town of 20k with about 950 in high school: enough for some variety, but not enough for all the really fancy stuff that the huge new schools have. On the other hand, the fastest speed limit along the school is 25mph, and it borders the walkable part of town (the rest of the town having been built after WW2.)

It seems like someone is always talking about bonds and matching funds from the state to build some monstrosity at the edge of town so it's only reachable by bus.

The problems of the school are many, but facility is not very high up on the list. The lack of smartboards, likewise. All the best teachers/professors I ever had used whiteboards or blackboards, and plenty of them held classes in buildings 3 times as old as my high school, with trashcans in the hallway to catch the rainwater. That's not to say there's not a place for new things in education, but thoughtful use of it doesn't require brand new everything.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#126

Post by matthewwiese »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #2

My Scouts from a rural community are largely not college-bound. Some do community college for a year or two; some enter the military. Most others get a certificate and work at contracting/construction/electrician type jobs. They do well. One bright bookish young man was an exception. My wife heard he was discouraged about college, so she researched and came up with a program to send qualified rural students to colleg…

Lovely to hear that your wife had the wherewithal to do that! As an Eagle Scout myself it always puts a smile on my face when I hear about a Scout finding success (after having worked to earn it). The program did a lot for developing my charisma and work ethic, not to mention the lasting friendships I have til this day. There are certainly gold nuggets hidden under all that fetishistic patriotism and religious handwringing.

Much luck to him. From one Scout to another. :)

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#127

Post by QuarterReptile »

hermitdev wrote: post #119
QuarterReptile wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we can all be proud that state governments are both handing out disproportionately large sums of money to rural areas and doing so in ways that crushes any notion of cost optimal. This is done, of course, through infrastructure building, in which rural mucipalities beggar themselves to get state matching for road construction they cant afford to spur on unproductive growth that will turn around to bite them wit…

I think you need some citations before your claims can be taken seriously.

Examples that prove insightful to you are a personal matter. Unless you believe it important that spending be apportioned by lane-mile or road inventory (which I'd argue is rife with moral hazard), it is likely that your state effects net infrastructure transfers from urban to rural, as is the case in mine.

If it's the 90% figure you doubt, I encourage you to look into some road projects. In Virginia, we have a particularly problematic system where the local contribution is pegged at 2% (see page 52)(though it can vary by project.) You are welcome to read the VA urban (misnomer) maintenance code, though I encourage you to find the one applicable to you, so you can be familiar with the perverse incentives provided in your own area. [http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/local_assistan...]

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#128

Post by _acme »

threatofrain wrote: post #63
Slansitartop wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But college costs the same for everyone. On average, I see more expensive cars in the Bay Area than I do in my home state. I suspect that's because they're proportionally cheaper to someone who can afford to live there.

Living expenses trump cost of college, IMO, especially if you are a needy person. Needy people can get great assistance, even if they don't know where to get it.

Who is a "needy person"? Usually that phrasing is meant in a derogatory way; is that what you mean?

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#129

Post by prewett »

stevenwoo wrote: post #68
spamizbad wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those not in poverty what you describe is -- indirectly -- a feature not a bug Schools are disappearing because there is no tax base to support them, and the remaining residents tend to favor an austere government. There's also a degree of distrust of governmental organizations. There are a lot of small towns where, if the state government came in and said "We're going to build you a school for free and you won't…

The little town in Texas that voted to put libertarians in charge is a decent cautionary tale. https://www.texasobserver.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-frees...

After reading the article I'd say that the problems were caused primarily by personal conflicts. Any problems with libertarian philosophy did not have a chance to surface because they were completely swamped by the dysfunction of town leaders.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#130

Post by _acme »

watwut wrote: post #10
VLM wrote: post #4

Fascinating that culturally the author couldn't bring himself to talk to the kids. The only kid he talked to was one of the unusual college attendees. Kind of shocking if you think about it. He repeated a lot of narrative from numerous professional axe grinders, but nothing can really be learned from that. It wasn't a story about the rural kids who don't go to college, it was a story about politicians axe grinding wh…

College grads do better then those who did not went to college - in terms of earnings, home ownership and just about any other stat I have seen. They do worst then grads of previous generation through. The worst off are those who took debt and then dropped out. Picking up grads as argument against college is odd, given that their results are not as bad as results of other demographic groups.

Given your atrocious grammar, I sure hope you didn't waste your money on a college degree. Comments are generally taken more seriously when the author takes the time to write properly.
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