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Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

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Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#281

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This is so incredibly condescending. People need "counseling" because they don't choose what you think they should choose? How about just respecting people's choices ??

Take a women who is a talented programmer and enjoys programmer, but chooses not to work as a programmer because she is sick of constant sexual harassment. Should we respect her choices or design interventions?

> Take a women who is a talented programmer and enjoys programmer, but chooses not to work as a programmer because she is sick of constant sexual harassment. Should we respect her choices or design interventions?

Nice strawman you are doing here. You're implying women aren't choosing STEM careers because of sexual harassment which is a complete lie. Your assertion is backed only by your misandrist ideology who sees men as harassers. But facts don't care about ideology facts are facts and you chose to live in a lie.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument would be more interesting if we weren't seeing heavy female attrition due sexual harassment unrelated to work content.

Is there female attrition? Is there female attrition due to sexual harassment? You're making a bold claim, which I am personally not seeing at all. Care to back it up with any references?

Of course he cannot back anything he is saying. He just deems women eternal victims of "toxic masculinity", the basis for intersectional ideology.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#283
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's actually plenty of evidence that it's not. What is the evidence? Even if you accept essentially any and all finding, however iffy, about gender-based cognitive differences, there is a huge leap from that to 'women are simply unsuitable for your typical programming job, to an 80/20 ratio'. I can't think of any actual scientists that make that argument, again, on the basis of any finding. It's not at all obviou…

> Even if you accept essentially any and all finding, however iffy, about gender-based cognitive differences, there is a huge leap from that to 'women are simply unsuitable for your typical programming job, to an 80/20 ratio Who said anything about unsuitability? I said the difference isn't necessarily artificial like the OP claimed, and you jump somehow to it being a matter of ability or temperament? You're putting…

I said the difference isn't necessarily artificial like the OP claimed

How do you connect any things/people preference to performance or disparity thereof in a generic programming job? It explains the disparity only if you make a substantial assumption not in evidence.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#284
post #49

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He said worse than that, IIRC. But his lawsuit will maybe bring more clarity on what he really thinks vs. what might have been mis-written or mis-read in various versions of 'the memo'.

what did he say worse than that?

One example would be:

> Google has created several discriminatory practices: - Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate

To me, that translates to: "Google creates programs that lower the bar for hiring "diverse" people. This directly implies to me that at least some "diverse" people who got hired got hired primarily because of their gender/race/whatever. Now, I work in a team with 3 female software engineers (out of ~10). According to his conclusions, probably at least one of them didn't pass the mustard, and only got the job because of her gender.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible that your dating pool is subject to sampling bias? Empirically speaking, about 1/4 of people in STEM are women, so if you've met 0 women interested in STEM, it seems like your experience simply aren't an accurate reflection of reality. [0] I think it's incredibly ironic that you're highlighting your own relative interest in STEM while failing to apply any degree of scientific rigor to your own thinking…

Oh brother, there's always that one guy on HN. None of this was supposed to "scientific", so relax. I'm giving you my 37 years of experience dating at least a couple hundred women, that's it.

That's fine as long as you don't try to draw any conclusions from your anecdote :-)

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US courts have disagreed with you in the James Damore case U.S. courts have not yet weighed in on the James Damore case.

https://www.cnet.com/news/googles-firing-of-diversity-memo-a... >Google didn't break the law when it fired James Damore over a memo that criticized the company's diversity policies and claimed tech's gender gap may be due to biological differences between men and women. You're right, its some other entity in US that interprets laws, I assumed it was a court

And they didn't even weigh in on the science, they just said the science was irrelevant if it caused a "hostile working environment".

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As expected, this is the top comment on an article practically built for this argument. It may very well be that men and women have different criteria, but that is completely irrelevant, and I find this line of argumentation very frustrating as it completely ignores the actual complaints at hand. Women in STEM complain that they have less job prospects and feel uncomfortable in their positions. Many women feel they a…

> As expected, this is the top comment That's because it's a good comment. > men and women have different criteria, but that is completely irrelevant No, it's not at all irrelevant, because the fact that fewer women choose STEM fields has been used to design a narrative about the causes when the evidence does not actually support that narrative, and in fact the simplest explanation is simply that women prefer other f…

> the simplest explanation is simply that women prefer other fields

I either don't find this particularly simple or a particularly explanatory.

On one reading it's just banal/tautologous; most of this discussion (innate inalienable preference, versus systemic bias, versus cultural pressure) concerns preference in some sense - people choosing to do something rather than being directly forced or prevented. My understanding of this discussion is that it is about what influences preference, and whether we should try and alter those influences across the life of a person.

Furthermore it's only really explanatory if you have some a priori expectation that the class of 'woman' ought to possess some group characteristic in this respect. So to me again this seems like a phenomenological observation ('people called Harry are less scared of heights') rather than much of an explanation.

The only way I can make sense of it as an explanation is if we are linking some innate biological preference in sexual females with some intrinsic quality inherent in STEM work. I am not ideologically opposed to either biological biases or intrinsic qualities of work from a cognitive standpoint. But the casual chains I have seen spun out from one to the other seem highly inconclusive, partial, or dubious (e.g. some notion of 'mechanical reasoning' to 'preference across all of STEM'). If the argument based on this simple explanation is intended to dismiss or substantially dismiss theories of systemic biases or structural inequality then I would need to be persuaded that there are not too many nooks and crannies for these cultural mechanisms to work. But it seems to me there are. At the start of this chain there are potential biases in early education (even in the neurological bootstrapping of infancy), and at the end of the chain the link between intrinsic quality of work versus how the work is done within a cultural context.

To try and be more concrete and hypothetical, what of the effect of the teaching of discursive comprehension based subjects to boys that may make it less likely to be their best subject, what about the types of things given to babies to play with (I see this regularly with a 6 month year old daughter), what about the differential effect on working hours across pregnancy, what about the way in which daily tasks in STEM are defined, etc. Seems to me like there are many degrees of freedom here.

To me the cognitive difference between women and men seem like minor cognitive perturbations - so it is surprising that this could cause large differences in distributions in some higher order effects many steps removed like profession.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a women who is a talented programmer and enjoys programmer, but chooses not to work as a programmer because she is sick of constant sexual harassment. Should we respect her choices or design interventions?

> Take a women who is a talented programmer and enjoys programmer, but chooses not to work as a programmer because she is sick of constant sexual harassment. Should we respect her choices or design interventions? Nice strawman you are doing here. You're implying women aren't choosing STEM careers because of sexual harassment which is a complete lie. Your assertion is backed only by your misandrist ideology who sees m…

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines. Doing that will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#290
post #97
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have observed a female student, super talented in math/programming (IMO/ICPC), to choose finances instead, as a teacher (male) was once saying to her that programming/math don't pay well and have low prestige and finances give easier, secure life. I can't say I had much sympathies to her choice after that, experiencing first time typical female stereotypes about mostly caring about money.

Most people care mostly about money. If the only reason you didn't appreciate her making that choice was because she was a woman, then you are sexist

> then you are sexist

As somebody that spent significant amount of time mentoring females, getting such a blank statement from a random person on HN feels absolutely motivating to continue to do so. Thanks!

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