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Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

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Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#91

Post by bitL »

datashovel wrote: post #73

I wonder if it's that fewer females prefer STEM, or is it that more men are doing things they would prefer not to?

If I (male) had a chance to be on a permanent comfortable welfare, I would probably spend more time playing games, doing sports, socializing, traveling etc. instead of being in a noisy office with bad light around desperate people I often dislike, whipped by my boss in a constant rat race, being refused bonuses for great performance as a new car/boat/house is of a sudden interest to my superior.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#92

Post by steve_musk »

seaknoll wrote: post #41

I wonder how much of this is related to parental leave policy versus generic social safety net. Countries with a strong safety net also have generous maternity leave but are behind on paternity. I imagine that at a large scale this does make many companies slightly less likely to hire women, and families much more likely to have the mother take time away from her job. The ultimate effect, albeit in a warm and fuzzy w…

Where are you coming up with these claims? First of all, the article is talking about gender equality and not social safety nets (although the two may be correlated). But more importantly, the countries with more gender equality tend to also have more equal paternity/maternity leave. Look up Norway and Sweden policies, for example.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#93

Post by geofft »

ghostcluster wrote: post #79
geofft wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's certainly possible that different career preferences is true and that the current distribution in practice is still skewed. That is, perhaps the "right" distribution is something like 60/40 men/women, in which case both 50/50 men/women and 90/10 men/women would be skewed and pushing people out of careers they'd be happy with.

As to distribution, there are some fundamental biological differences that explain the skew that have been discovered. The largest pertinent difference being aptitude for mechanical reasoning in the general population. > 3233 young and old adolescents representative of the population > For the young adolescents, the observed difference in Mechanical Reasoning is equivalent to 10 IQ points, and this difference increas…

What is "mechanical reasoning"? That paper gives examples of two standardized test questions about pulleys and levers - intuition about that sort of thing is important for some parts of STEM, sure, but I'm not sure it's a skill I've ever used in software engineering, except maybe when plugging in a second monitor on a crowded desk.

There are fundamental biological differences, sure. What do those fundamental biological differences mean for specific career fields and why - and given the mean and standard deviation, which presumably we have, what's the right number, if it's not 50/50?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#94

Post by bluewave »

reitanqild wrote: post #43
bluewave wrote: post #15

The defensive tone of this article is alarming. If you don't study computer science now you will likely be in the same boat 30 years from now with illiterate folks of today. Disparity in computer science education in Western countries puts women at a massive economic disadvantage and is a major geopolitical risk. Arguing that women naturally prefer non-STEM fields is sexist and dangerous. Helping drive up the numbers…

> Helping drive up the numbers of women and other underrepresented populations in CS should be a major priority for developed countries. What if we try to respect womens choices and work to get them better pay for the very important work they actually do, first? Why is it that nursing or teaching should be paid so much less than software engineering? Or even worse: why is it so much cooler to be an engineeer like me…

You've answered your own question. Supply/demand is not something we can negotiate or tweak to our liking. Teaching/nursing jobs need to be automated as much as possible if we want to deal with global issues like aging populations and educational inequality.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#95

Post by shar3333f »

I find the that those who use this as some sort of argument against feminism often are ignoring the emphasis feminists put on social conditioning as an influencing and oppressive factor on the behaviour of each gender.

Just because a country, by law, affords women the same rights as men that doesn't mean it's a country which is free of the social conditioning which force certain expectations upon each gender. These are things that are inherited from previous generations and do not go away so easily.

People use these results to imply something like "when people are free to do what they want they tend to their 'natural' gender role". But I don't believe this statement can be justified as countries with "more gender equality" (i.e. better women's rights) have yet to shed themselves of societal idioms and culture that feminist theory would call oppressive. I.e. traditional gender roles in the media, toys etc.

I think a more accurate statement would be "when people are free to do what they want, they will tend to behaviours they're conditioned toward." After all, as we can see in the "less gender equality" countries, larger percentages of women in society can and do enjoy careers in STEM fields. What would be interesting is to see 10-20 years down the line how some countries progress and how these behaviours feedback into the next generation.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#96

Post by OtterCoder »

aspaceman wrote: post #78
pacala wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as a group women have decided that the best way to make themselves more welcome in STEM I missed when the voting took place. You mean a group of activist women (and men) assumed to talk on behalf of all women in the field?

Yes. If you feel differently, and you are a woman then I highly encourage you to become more involved with activism because that is the only way to make your voice and opinions heard. It is not fair that all womens' positions have been decided by activists, and many women in tech have specifically noted this issue. However, activism is available for any individual interested in it.

You miss the point that a satisfied person has little incentive for activism. Also, most conservative opinions tend to be met with anything from disgust to derision online, further disincentivizing counter-protest.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#97

Post by webkike »

bitL wrote: post #81
sannee wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why we should try to make somebody choose a subject they didn't choose to do. If they didn't choose to do a subject because, for example, they had their high school teacher(s) tell them that he "does not expect female students to do as well as male students" (I have seen that happen few years back when I was still in high school), then it surely is an undertaking worth considering.

I have observed a female student, super talented in math/programming (IMO/ICPC), to choose finances instead, as a teacher (male) was once saying to her that programming/math don't pay well and have low prestige and finances give easier, secure life. I can't say I had much sympathies to her choice after that, experiencing first time typical female stereotypes about mostly caring about money.

Most people care mostly about money. If the only reason you didn't appreciate her making that choice was because she was a woman, then you are sexist

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#98

Post by f137 »

aspaceman wrote: post #56
nicolashahn wrote: post #9

I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers, and artificially forcing the distributions towards the middle might do more harm than good.

As expected, this is the top comment on an article practically built for this argument. It may very well be that men and women have different criteria, but that is completely irrelevant, and I find this line of argumentation very frustrating as it completely ignores the actual complaints at hand. Women in STEM complain that they have less job prospects and feel uncomfortable in their positions. Many women feel they a…

Claiming that men and women just have different criteria, and thus the problem should be ignored entirely completely misses the point.

Can you read at all? OP did not say anything like that

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#99

Post by aspaceman »

lulmerchant wrote: post #64
aspaceman wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As expected, this is the top comment on an article practically built for this argument. It may very well be that men and women have different criteria, but that is completely irrelevant, and I find this line of argumentation very frustrating as it completely ignores the actual complaints at hand. Women in STEM complain that they have less job prospects and feel uncomfortable in their positions. Many women feel they a…

This data entirely negates that claim. In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative forces, they simply self-select not to participate in certain fields (on average). If you cannot participate in a field where not enough of the people look and act like you, then perhaps you have the problem.

The article never claims that areas of high gender equality do not have these negative forces.

In fact, my main issue with this article is how it defines "gender equality".

> If you cannot participate in a field where not enough of the people look and act like you, then perhaps you have the problem.

I never made any such claim - you have twisted my words in order to make me appear irrational and prejudiced. I claim that women do not participate in tech because they feel actively ostracized and unwelcome. More women would help alleviate this issue. Do not put words into my mouth instead of addressing the statements that I make.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#100

Post by tajen »

js8 wrote: post #12

"If governments want to increase women’s participation in STEM, a more effective strategy might be to target the girls who are clearly being lost from the STEM pathway – those for whom science and maths are their best subjects and who enjoy it but still don’t choose it" I don't understand why we should try to make somebody choose a subject they didn't choose to do.

My sister when to STEM instead on another field, because of campaigns. She hates herself for doing that, even now at 38 years old. It’s entirely probable that encouraging women to do things they stubbornly wouldn’t choose otherwise is making a generation of depressive mothers.
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