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Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

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Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#61

Post by js8 »

sannee wrote: post #36
js8 wrote: post #12

"If governments want to increase women’s participation in STEM, a more effective strategy might be to target the girls who are clearly being lost from the STEM pathway – those for whom science and maths are their best subjects and who enjoy it but still don’t choose it" I don't understand why we should try to make somebody choose a subject they didn't choose to do.

> I don't understand why we should try to make somebody choose a subject they didn't choose to do. If they didn't choose to do a subject because, for example, they had their high school teacher(s) tell them that he "does not expect female students to do as well as male students" (I have seen that happen few years back when I was still in high school), then it surely is an undertaking worth considering.

OK, so you're saying they are misinformed? Fair enough. I don't mind informing them, as long as they have a free choice and are not coerced into selecting a career that is not interesting.

However, this very much contradicts to the paradox. Why should women in countries with greater gender equality be less informed about available options?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#62

Post by ghostcluster »

nicolashahn wrote: post #9

I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers, and artificially forcing the distributions towards the middle might do more harm than good.

> I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers

Not only is this true, it has been fairly exhaustively researched.

> Cross-cultural consistency of sex differences for four traits: extraversion, agreeableness, neuroticism, and male-versus-female-typical occupational preferences. Men and women differed on all four traits. 200,000 participants from 53 nations.

> Only sex predicted means for all four traits, and sex predicted trait means much more strongly than did gender equality or the interaction between sex and gender equality. These results suggest that biological factors may contribute to sex differences in personality and that culture plays a negligible to small role in moderating sex differences in personality.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-008-9380-7

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#63

Post by pacala »

aspaceman wrote: post #56
nicolashahn wrote: post #9

I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers, and artificially forcing the distributions towards the middle might do more harm than good.

As expected, this is the top comment on an article practically built for this argument. It may very well be that men and women have different criteria, but that is completely irrelevant, and I find this line of argumentation very frustrating as it completely ignores the actual complaints at hand. Women in STEM complain that they have less job prospects and feel uncomfortable in their positions. Many women feel they a…

> as a group women have decided that the best way to make themselves more welcome in STEM

I missed when the voting took place. You mean a group of activist women (and men) assumed to talk on behalf of all women in the field?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#64

Post by lulmerchant »

aspaceman wrote: post #56
nicolashahn wrote: post #9

I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers, and artificially forcing the distributions towards the middle might do more harm than good.

As expected, this is the top comment on an article practically built for this argument. It may very well be that men and women have different criteria, but that is completely irrelevant, and I find this line of argumentation very frustrating as it completely ignores the actual complaints at hand. Women in STEM complain that they have less job prospects and feel uncomfortable in their positions. Many women feel they a…

This data entirely negates that claim. In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative forces, they simply self-select not to participate in certain fields (on average).

If you cannot participate in a field where not enough of the people look and act like you, then perhaps you have the problem.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#66

Post by Baeocystin »

seaknoll wrote: post #41

I wonder how much of this is related to parental leave policy versus generic social safety net. Countries with a strong safety net also have generous maternity leave but are behind on paternity. I imagine that at a large scale this does make many companies slightly less likely to hire women, and families much more likely to have the mother take time away from her job. The ultimate effect, albeit in a warm and fuzzy w…

As far as I know, all developed countries have birthrates that are below replacement values. Is it really so bad to think that motherhood is something that should be focused on? Of my family/friends that are women with children, every single one of them wants more flexibility with their work, because they want more time to spend with the children. Children certainly benefit from parental attention. Yet many workplace policies regarding childcare are downright draconian. Perhaps we should accept that prioritizing parenting is a good thing, and try and make it so that people can both work and have the support they need to help with their familial obligations.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#67

Post by bdcravens »

psyc wrote: post #48
mpweiher wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so incredibly condescending. People need "counseling" because they don't choose what you think they should choose? How about just respecting people's choices ??

Where I come from, it is extremely standard for high school students to receive friendly counseling about what they want to pursue in college. Most young people I know do not sit in isolation deciding what to do with their lives, without discussing it with any adults.

There’s a difference between helping someone make a decision and actively trying to change their decision.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#68

Post by geofft »

darawk wrote: post #37
geofft wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's certainly possible that different career preferences is true and that the current distribution in practice is still skewed. That is, perhaps the "right" distribution is something like 60/40 men/women, in which case both 50/50 men/women and 90/10 men/women would be skewed and pushing people out of careers they'd be happy with.

It is possible. But it's also possible that it's not skewed, or even skewed the other way. It's as though someone should investigate this question before embarking on programs to shift the distribution to arbitrary places.

> It's as though someone should investigate this question before embarking on programs to shift the distribution to arbitrary places.

If the status quo is 90/10 or worse, I don't agree: 50/50 is the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis can certainly be disproven, but the amount of evidence needed to hold a belief that 50/50 is probably correct is much smaller than the amount of evidence needed to hold a belief that 90/10 is probably correct. I don't think the right approach is "We should let the status quo stay indefinitely until we've convinced ourself of what the right number is" - if we have evidence that the status quo is potentially right, that evidence should be plenteous and easy to gather.

(That said, I do agree that programs focused on improving "the pipeline" and getting more girls interested in STEM are misguided and it would be better to focus on removing the barriers that cause women already interested in STEM careers to leave. But that's a little bit of a different subject.)

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#69

Post by depressedpanda »

Given a choice, more women than men will go for non-STEM careers, so in rich countries you will find way more STEM-proficient men than women. This has been known for quite some time.

But take care not to mention this at workplaces where they use diversity hiring practices to try to artificially and unfairly inflate their percentage of women compared to the field as a whole.

It will get you fired.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#70

Post by joelthelion »

aspaceman wrote: post #56
nicolashahn wrote: post #9

I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers, and artificially forcing the distributions towards the middle might do more harm than good.

As expected, this is the top comment on an article practically built for this argument. It may very well be that men and women have different criteria, but that is completely irrelevant, and I find this line of argumentation very frustrating as it completely ignores the actual complaints at hand. Women in STEM complain that they have less job prospects and feel uncomfortable in their positions. Many women feel they a…

> Claiming that men and women just have different criteria, and thus the problem should be ignored entirely completely misses the point.

OP did not draw that conclusion.

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