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New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

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Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#41

Post by ky738 »

unethical_ban wrote: post #24
ky738 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part where they have to write a CoC to please some groups, and disregard a thing called "common sense" which always existed inside the community. Thus making this a joke.

You're like the Federalists who think we shouldn't have had to put down a Bill of Rights in the United States, because "obviously" any right not granted to the government is the right of the people. Just like "Warning: Object is hot" seems stupid on an iron, it may seem silly that we have to say "Don't be racist; don't troll; don't pick on someone because of their attributes or beliefs; just be nice" but there it is.…

Someone comparing a open source project with the bill of rights... time to sleep!

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#42

Post by malvosenior »

> Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion.

Harassment should be harassment, no? Does it matter if the perpetrator is "reinforcing systemic oppression" or just being obnoxious? Why put this clause in here? Will it be enforced when someone says "kill all men" or "apply for our speaking position if you're not a white male"?

This CoC seems sharply political, which is sad because something like FreeBSD should more or less be totally free of politics.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#43

Post by Yver »

soyiuz wrote: post #33
whatshisface wrote: post #20

> Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion. So, there's a lot of "politicking" going on back and forth over this, but I'd like to suggest a specific problem: by attempting to formalize what used to be intuition, you're opening the door for people…

Possibly. But the benefits outweigh the marginal scenario you are envisioning. I again return to the example of HN, which has higher standards of conversation than many other boards, due in part to strong moderating guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html To draw a parallel, do you think HN would be more successful if it relied on "intuition" for norms of discussion?

The benefits of that kind of CoC remain to be proven. Meanwhile, I note that HN's moderating guidelines do not mention sex, gender, religion, food choices, or most of what FreeBSD's new CoC describes.

HN's moderating guidelines are about content whereas FreeBSD's new Code of Conduct codifies human behaviour, as the name would imply. They are different things.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#44

Post by klipt »

alangpierce wrote: post #32
whatshisface wrote: post #20

> Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion. So, there's a lot of "politicking" going on back and forth over this, but I'd like to suggest a specific problem: by attempting to formalize what used to be intuition, you're opening the door for people…

I think a lot of potential technicalities like that are handled pretty well by this paragraph at the start: > This document is not an exhaustive list of things that you should not do. Rather, consider it a guide to make it easier to enrich all of us and the technical communities in which we participate.

That's vague and hand wavey. Their definitions are ripe for abuse and I'm sure someone will create e.g. an app for female rape victims and argue that excluding male rape victims is fine because "you can't be sexist against men."

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#45

Post by alangpierce »

aap_ wrote: post #10

This makes me sad. Do people really need to be told what not to do and say like that? To me it feels insulting that I am not trusted to be nice to others.

> it feels insulting that I am not trusted to be nice to others

This isn't targeted at you, though, or even the average person. Even if this stuff is obvious to most people, there certainly exist people who can't be trusted to be nice to others, and they're the ones causing problems, so they're the most important target audience for a code of conduct.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#46

Post by ethomson »

whatshisface wrote: post #23
rayiner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the exact opposite: It's rules for how to work on code without bringing personal crap into it. Do you want a date? Do you think there is something wrong with trans people? Do you have thoughts on race relations? Nobody cares, check that baggage at the door.

As far as I can see, the real problem here is that some forms of baggage are still allowed (an inevitable problem with any finite list of rules), meaning that you will end up with baggage imbalances and endless debate over which baggages are permissable self-expression and which ones are unacceptable.

It is not a finite list of rules. It is an explanation of the values (eg, respecting diversity) and a list of examples of things that are obviously prohibited. It is explicitly "not an exhaustive list of things that you should not do", and although it does list some _examples_ of things that are prohibited - it provides examples that are "not limited to" the ones provided.

This clearly reduces the ambiguity in the community. And even if some ambiguity does remain - which, as you point out, is inevitable - having examples of obviously impermissible behavior and a framework for conflict resolution is requisite for a community.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#47

Post by gkya »

lolikoisuru wrote: post #34

https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=32582... Never forget

The following is from the very top of a random file in the removed set I clicked:

  A bad little girl in Madrid,
  A most reprehensible kid,
          Told her Tante Louise
          That her cunt smelled like cheese,
  And the worst of it was that it did!
Wat!? Good riddance.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#48

Post by coldtea »

rayiner wrote: post #30
whatshisface wrote: post #20

> Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion. So, there's a lot of "politicking" going on back and forth over this, but I'd like to suggest a specific problem: by attempting to formalize what used to be intuition, you're opening the door for people…

By that reasoning, we should never have rules, because any rule will create the possibility of people trying to lawyer out of the rules.

Doesn't sound bad. Most communities survived 20+ years, and even thrived, without any such rules.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#49

Post by psyc »

davehtaylor wrote: post #3

It's sad that things like this have to be explicitly spelled out

While I’ve been persuaded that the CoC trend is probably net positive, I am still very interested in this larger background problem.

“There is deep infantilism in the culture ... They want to be told, or, they want to decide and say, ‘This is good, this is bad, I’m saying so.’ Anything that in any way conflicts with that is not to be borne.” -Stephen Fry

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#50

Post by ham-2_718281828 »

So now we have "free as in freedom", "free as in beer", and with this policy, "free as in Stalin".

This policy itself is disgusting example of newspeak, redefining the well-known word "harassment" to conform to this groups' political agenda.

The project should be renamed to "TotalitarianBSD".

I suppose that today, to speak honestly and call things as they are in daily life, one must now travel to places that preserve those freedoms like China, Iran, North Korea, or Somalia.

Did I just get sentenced to the countryside for re-education and self-criticism? OOPS!

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