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German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

reuters.com

211–220 of 404 posts

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#211
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time seeing how you came to your conclusions about point 3. The rulings seem crystal clear and are explained in normal language. Take the google shopping case: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm Seems very clear what is wrong. I'm thinking that perhaps it's a good thing that future companies like FB can't take off in Europe. The need for a product like FB is clear, and if the rules p…

I disagree. I followed the shopping case closely. At no point was it obvious what Google did wrong, or why providing shopping results is a problem but not maps or videos, or how you would predict and avoid such problems in a new company and product line. Nor are any of the other cases clear cut. Apple's case isn't even about Apple, it's more like a power struggle between the Commission and the Irish government. We sa…

I must admit that I've not followed the case all that closely. But, assuming that the document does not lie, this part looks like a huge problem:

> "Evidence shows that even the most highly ranked rival service appears on average only on page four of Google's search results, and others appear even further down"

I think this is a death sentence for any website whose that previously depended on unbiased search results. I remember reading sometime in the past that virtually all clicks go to the first two results, third and fourth barely receiving any, and other pages not even visited.

Combined with the fact that google supplied 90% of all search traffic it looks clear that they were starving their competitors.

To be honest I'm also skeptical of any open source, (hopefully distributed) social network from ever coming into existence. But I'm equally sure that what FB, and google, are doing with information about me is not the way to go. They are earning money with the information they are endlessly slurping up about me in any way they can. Rarely with my _informed_ consent. And if this is how the EU fights back, I'm all for it.

Off topic/related:

Like the bait and switch they do with youtube. I've had an account there for ages, long before social networks were a thing. I've got content up there, 2k video's that I've liked and would like to be able to keep visiting. But it has happened a number of times where I was forced to 'accept' the changes to the TOS. Youtube does not allow me to download my liked video's easily. Apparently what they are doing is not illegal, or maybe the courts have not caught up to the things like this yet. But it does create an adversarial relationship, therefore I dislike youtube, and loathe facebook and google these days. They are constantly taking steps to my disadvantage.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not entirely true - MOSS actually works quite well, and preparing a sales report grouped by country should be trivial no matter what infrastructure you're using.

If you cannot provide a list of sales by country, you maybe should not be running a business.

Well, it's not that - before that law was introduced, you could simply ignore the country, since it's about digital downloads. If all you cared for was getting a payment, it was not unusual to have the transaction list in the forms of e-mails. Now you need much more information.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#213
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addressing your point #1, the EU has no enforcement mechanism for fines or otherwise unless you have physical presence (servers, offices etc...) in an EU member nation or are processing money on EU run systems. So if a social media platform strictly based outside of the EU "exports PII" from an EU resident there isn't anything the EU can do about it, other than asking google or apple to take their app off the app sto…

You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is transferred to you from European customers? Noneuropean companies already have to pay VAT on stuff they export to EU, so it is not as if there is no big collection already going on.

Suppose I put up a website hosted on a server I own in a non-EU country. A person from the EU visits the site, I gather their personal information, and I sell that information to a non-EU buyer blatantly in violation of EU privacy law. I have no offices, bank accounts, property, service providers, subsidiaries, suppliers, customers, etc., in the EU.

> You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is transferred to you from European customers?

I don't have any money being transferred to me from European customers.

Unless the EU has a treaty with the non-EU country me and my site are in that provides for the enforcement of EU fines in this area in me or my buyer's country, how are they going to actually enforce a fine against me?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner.” That’s true only if you regard he EU as a single entity. Laws made via the EU will be turned into national law, and independent judges will judge all cases, up to the EU high court. By the same right you could call the US judge, jury and executioner on all laws and rules made and enforced by the US government (FACTA anyone?)

No. That's not how the EU works. That's how a national government would work but not the EU. The GDPR is not a directive so it does not have to be translated into national law. It is directly binding and applies immediately everywhere. Fines have to be paid up front, before appeals are exhausted. Appeals can of course take years. The EU courts have judges appointed by the same people who control the rest of the EU, a…

No, the enforcement is through the national "supervisory authorities" such as the ICO. Most of the enforcement process is through national courts and the ECJ is only for the final layer of appeal. This very article says "German Court rules ..."

> voided the UK's opt out of new human rights related legislation, despite a very clear paragraph in the treaties saying they did not apply to the UK.

[citation needed]; did you read this in the UK press?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#215
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. I think that's a good thing. So the law has to be interpreted by precedence set by the courts. If the text of is too specific you could have the opposite effect of companies weaseling through. It is not a tax. It's pretty clear that the EU expects companies to treat private user data with respect. If your company cannot operate without exploiti…

Why have any law at all, by your logic? Just have a single law that says "Whatever we decide, is final" and make up all rulings and fines on the fly. No 'weaselling' is possible then. Only problem is, it's totalitarian. Nobody knows what is or is not allowed, there is no such thing as justice. Law is meant to be precise. If it's not, then ignorance of the law does become an excuse and law loses its moral authority. U…

Somewhat ironically, as it's the--presumably soon without the UK--EU we're talking about, but you're basically objecting to a Common Law system. Admittedly, in modern times, there's a lot less practical distinction between civil and common law jurisdictions than there once was, but nonetheless common law is "the part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes."

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#216
post #18

Wait until GDPR is in place in May and German and other EU courts will rule FB to death. IDK how FB will ever be compliant with GDPR and survive that huge upcoming fines in the long term or in the worst case the withdrawal from these markets.

The GDPR is beautiful and an example of the best outcomes democracy can produce. The winners are pretty much everyone. It's sad that the US can't implement public policy like this.

only real freedom is financial. Americans don't usually like to preemptively create rules and regulations that could hinder innovation or hurt businesses.

What good is your privacy if you are poor.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s fantastic, for the US. The next step would be to follow all EU laws to the letter, too.

It's an US company if I remember correctly. Does a hamburger place in the US need to follow EU laws because tourists come to it often? No.

Last time I agreed to Facebooks terms of services it explicitly said that the agreement is between me and Facebook Ireland Limited in Dublin. I only ever consented to the data being transferred and processed in the US.

The Facebook Europeans use is very much an EU company.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#218
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have any law at all, by your logic? Just have a single law that says "Whatever we decide, is final" and make up all rulings and fines on the fly. No 'weaselling' is possible then. Only problem is, it's totalitarian. Nobody knows what is or is not allowed, there is no such thing as justice. Law is meant to be precise. If it's not, then ignorance of the law does become an excuse and law loses its moral authority. U…

As mentioned in another reply, the actual laws will have to be implemented by the member states anyway. So the text for each country can vary and can be more specific. As for your strawman that I somehow argued to abandon all law: I won't deal with that.

No, they actually won't. The Data Protection Directive needed to be implemented by national legislators into national law, but the GDPR is a regulation which means it is directly binding law.

Only a few technical, minor points need to be spelled out in national regulations or laws.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#219

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

The US has software patents. The EU has GDPR. China has rampant IP theft. Russia has corruption. Every large market has peculiarities, it's the cost of doing business.

> The US has software patents.

So does the EU [1].

"The European Patent Convention states that software is not patentable. But laws are always interpreted by courts, and in this case interpretations of the law differ. So the European Patents Office (EPO) grants software patents by declaring them as 'computer implemented inventions'".

[1] https://fsfe.org/campaigns/swpat/swpat.en.html

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#220
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a list of countries with the most Facebook users: https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-... The first EU country is #10, and it won't even be an EU country in a few years. I think Facebook would survive leaving the EU market just fine. I'm sure they really, really don't want to, but they could. Edit: updated link

Leaving the EU would have very strong network effects and is IMO not an option for Facebook. The entry barrier to social networks is so low now that this could trigger a mass exodus in the rest of the world.

Why do you think social networks have cross country network effects? Xing and VK seem to be doing just fine.
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