German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#41

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

nordsieck wrote: post #34

shadowtree wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. 2., The EU is a very rich, large market - considered the single largest economy in the world (GDP per capita). Good luck not targeting it with your products. 3., The pendulum around data protection is swinging back, this is normal. Apple saw it and adjusted already. Google is cooperating and staying quiet. Only F…

> 1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. Anyone can claim jurisdiction. Enforcement is another matter entirely. If there is no presence in Europe, I can't imagine how the they would collect.

Yes, unfortunately, in the case of FB there is.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#42

Post by AndrewKemendo » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

shadowtree wrote: post #17

peoplewindow wrote: post #5

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. 2., The EU is a very rich, large market - considered the single largest economy in the world (GDP per capita). Good luck not targeting it with your products. 3., The pendulum around data protection is swinging back, this is normal. Apple saw it and adjusted already. Google is cooperating and staying quiet. Only F…

Addressing your point #1, the EU has no enforcement mechanism for fines or otherwise unless you have physical presence (servers, offices etc...) in an EU member nation or are processing money on EU run systems.

So if a social media platform strictly based outside of the EU "exports PII" from an EU resident there isn't anything the EU can do about it, other than asking google or apple to take their app off the app store or somehow blocking the domain across the EU.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#43

Post by TomMarius » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

lima wrote: post #14

peoplewindow wrote: post #5

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

Deeply unattractive business environment for companies exploiting people's personal data without their consent? Good.

You can stop using Facebook if you want to

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#44

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

paxy wrote: post #4

The ruling and article only mention Facebook but I don't see how everything in it doesn't apply to every single app/website that does targeted advertising.

It does and it will be an interesting time ahead. I don't think 2018 will see any enforcement, maybe a couple of warnings but nothing major. But I fully expect some large company to be thrown the book at in 2019 and it would be lovely to see FB as the one they will make an example out of.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#45

Post by twblalock » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

waytogo wrote: post #18

Wait until GDPR is in place in May and German and other EU courts will rule FB to death. IDK how FB will ever be compliant with GDPR and survive that huge upcoming fines in the long term or in the worst case the withdrawal from these markets.

Here is a list of countries with the most Facebook users: https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-...

The first EU country is #10, and it won't even be an EU country in a few years.

I think Facebook would survive leaving the EU market just fine. I'm sure they really, really don't want to, but they could.

Edit: updated link

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#46

Post by TomMarius » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

imbusy111 wrote: post #9

peoplewindow wrote: post #5

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

Maybe the way we architect social networks online is fundamentally flawed? Maybe these products should not even exist. I'm not claiming I have a better solution though.

We have the answer - no, nothing's flawed, there's a huge demand.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#47

Post by falcolas » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

nordsieck wrote: post #34

shadowtree wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. 2., The EU is a very rich, large market - considered the single largest economy in the world (GDP per capita). Good luck not targeting it with your products. 3., The pendulum around data protection is swinging back, this is normal. Apple saw it and adjusted already. Google is cooperating and staying quiet. Only F…

> 1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. Anyone can claim jurisdiction. Enforcement is another matter entirely. If there is no presence in Europe, I can't imagine how the they would collect.

If you're large enough to be noticed and fined, you've probably got a corporate presence in EU; if only for the tax benefits.

I've worked with companies as small as 200 people who have a presence in the EU.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#48

Post by jimnotgym » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

rlanday wrote: post #26

salsadip wrote: post #21

I think it's interesting that more antitrust lawsuits seem to be brought and won against big SV companies recently in Europe. Is it just recently because because bureaucracy takes its' time, or is it because nowadays there is more political will to act against American companies since EU-American relations worsened since Trump came into office?

Those who can’t innovate, regulate. I think trying to money from big US tech companies since Europe doesn’t have many of its own is definitely part of the equation.

Another way to look at it is that some US tech companies think they can treat laws as an inconvenience to brush aside. In the USA corporate capture of regulators and political lobbying have reached the levels whereby they are unable to tackle these behemoths, however the EU is still operating as an efficient law enforcer? And maybe the EU does lack an illegal data collecting advertiser disguised as address book, but that is not the only kind of technical innovation possible.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#49

Post by TomMarius » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

lima wrote: post #25

saas_co_de wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> USA doesn't constantly fine its firms for not doing "enough" The EU isn't fining its firms. It is fining US firms. Big difference.

This claim is completely unsubstantiated.

It's true, the reasoning (e.g. no EU firms to fine / corruption / market protection) is unclear.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#50

Post by chrisper » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #41

nordsieck wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. Anyone can claim jurisdiction. Enforcement is another matter entirely. If there is no presence in Europe, I can't imagine how the they would collect.

Yes, unfortunately, in the case of FB there is.

Unfortunately?