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My new favorite book of all time

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411–420 of 421 posts

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#411
post #407
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This approach is indefensible given the actual state of the world, and these activists are either confused about the facts, or cynically manipulating their followers for personal power. Except that, as any student of history knows, the current state of the world is what it is thanks almost entirely to people just like that (although historians generally view them in a better light than you do because of what they'v…

My technophile bias is showing, but I'm not convinced that any, all, and every past and present student of history thinks that progress is due to violent/radical revolutionaries, and that they are/were the good guys (gals) - even if revolutions were necessary for change. However, it's seems very evident that to extract even some minuscule progress from a conservative power structure a very strong anti-conservative fo…

> and that they are/were the good guys (gals) - even if revolutions were necessary for change.

While my training as a professional historian was cut short, I know enough to say that historians are very much trained not to judge or categorize people into good or bad. That has nothing to do with the fact that most social change has been achieved through political struggle.

> Again, however, that doesn't mean that the best course of action is a violent tabula rasa, even if things are currently shit.

I try not to prescribe a course of action based on the past. I note that Pinker's assessment is judgmental, i.e., he considers the main trend to be positive, yet at the same time he's judgmental against activists. My point is that you can't hold both views at once.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#412
post #406
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe he's arguing in good faith, but his conservative views are so deeply entrenched that even he fails to see how conservative he is. Such an extreme ideology that you yourself cannot distinguish from what you perceive to be neutral reasoning is the primary sign of a weak critical mind. I find Pinker to be one of the weakest public minds of our times for that reason, and for that I find him terribly boring. A write…

Could you expand on what do you mean conservative here? Also, could you recommend some public minds whom you consider strong?

> Could you expand on what do you mean conservative here?

Someone who believes or acts towards (either consciously or not) the preservation of the current distribution of power in society and against changing it. Often extreme conservatives (though not Pinker) even desire to return the social order to some (almost always imagined) past.

> Also, could you recommend some public minds whom you consider strong?

Max Weber, Marc Bloch, Clifford Geertz, Erving Goffman. Strong does not necessarily mean "right". It means either having truly profound and interesting insight and/or the ability to apply critical thinking to yourself.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#413
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) The issue is that violence is a poor metric for progress. Pinker has made it clear that the description of declining violence is done in order to describe the improvement of the human plight, as most succinctly crystallized in the title of his first work on the point, and the overarching research thesis of his second. The structure of his first argument also points to this: violence has decreased, and all of the r…

There was a time when "normal people" had better access to justice - the fact that you even need to ask this question should cause... ...you to realize that your propositions are not accepted uncritically and you should support them with evidence.

Russell’s Teapot applies here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or more to the point, countries that trade together don't go to war against each other. The surest way to keep the peace is to be mutually dependent.

That was the assertion prior to WWI.

Exactly. It's not enough to have mutual dependency. You must also have liberal democracies.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you consider war as (among other things) "a contest" (albeit a very grim one), do any of you think there'd ever be any traction in settling disputes via something more sportsmanlike and without such fatality and waste of human life on both sides? I am reminded of the pistol duels of ages ago (although those were often fatal). Something that could test the "will and skill" of opponents who agree to settle it in suc…

No, because a symbolic contest is not final in the way that the physical imposition of force is: a country who loses a symbolic contest has limited incentive to abide by the symbolic outcome if they believe they can nevertheless impose their will on the other country by force. Wars end when contestants lose the will or the ability to resist the will of the opponent. There can and should be other options to settle dif…

> War is the final arbiter, stupid as it is.

Perhaps when it comes to sovereign states, but with individuals you have things like tort law, instead of simply killing the person you have a dispute with. Why couldn't there be something like that on the international level?

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#416
post #399
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could as easily interpret that the abolishment movements relation with the civil war has about as much validity as the relation between the first world war and the suffrage movement. I am not saying you are wrong, but that political writers tend to disregard facts and make interpretations that fits their views regardless if they are left or right, usually to the detriment of the truth. > I have not seen the witch…

> but that political writers tend to disregard facts and make interpretations that fits their views regardless if they are left or right, usually to the detriment of the truth. All writers are political (I would hope all people) and there are many brilliant historians, some writing analyses that would appear contradictory to their stated views (my best professor was like that). > simplistic prosecution of defenseless…

I have to just say I have enjoyed your posts in this thread immensely. Cheers.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And any direct war that happened after 1945, had one belligerent that did not possess nuclear weapons, who turned out to be loser The Vietnam War would seem to belie your claim

I don't think Vietnam had nuclear weapons back then, or did they?

The US did

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because a symbolic contest is not final in the way that the physical imposition of force is: a country who loses a symbolic contest has limited incentive to abide by the symbolic outcome if they believe they can nevertheless impose their will on the other country by force. Wars end when contestants lose the will or the ability to resist the will of the opponent. There can and should be other options to settle dif…

> War is the final arbiter, stupid as it is. Perhaps when it comes to sovereign states, but with individuals you have things like tort law, instead of simply killing the person you have a dispute with. Why couldn't there be something like that on the international level?

What incentivises individuals to obey the decisions of courts? In the end, again, it's force, as monopolized by the state. If you don't abide by the court's decision, the state will take measures against you: it will impose fines, garnish wages, take away various privileges, and ultimately imprison you. If there were no such unpleasant and inevitable consequences, many people would simply ignore a tort judgment against them.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> War is the final arbiter, stupid as it is. Perhaps when it comes to sovereign states, but with individuals you have things like tort law, instead of simply killing the person you have a dispute with. Why couldn't there be something like that on the international level?

What incentivises individuals to obey the decisions of courts? In the end, again, it's force, as monopolized by the state. If you don't abide by the court's decision, the state will take measures against you: it will impose fines, garnish wages, take away various privileges, and ultimately imprison you. If there were no such unpleasant and inevitable consequences, many people would simply ignore a tort judgment again…

Was this the original idea of the UN? (Which has since oft been criticized for "having no teeth")

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#420

" War is illegal. This idea seems obvious. But before the creation of the United Nations in 1945, no institution had the power to stop countries from going to war with each other. Although there have been some exceptions, the threat of international sanctions and intervention has proven to be an effective deterrent to wars between nations." I would argue that something else that happened in 1945 has been a much bigge…

War became illegal when those that declare war could not avoid being killed in war.

STOP THE PRESSES!! Erase all prior analyses and all following as misguided. There HAS been a change: you nailed the reason spot-on:

Nuclear weapons mean that those that declare war cannot insure they will not be killed by it.

This does not apply to (1) pathologically narcistic insecure megalomaniacs, (2) multi-national organizations/companies that profit from war, (3) competing, well-siloed, immortal military AI strategic advisors, unfortinately!

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