My new favorite book of all time • Hacker News Board

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#241

Post by gowld » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

jk2323 wrote: post #210

topleveldomain wrote: post #17

" War is illegal. This idea seems obvious. But before the creation of the United Nations in 1945, no institution had the power to stop countries from going to war with each other. Although there have been some exceptions, the threat of international sanctions and intervention has proven to be an effective deterrent to wars between nations." I would argue that something else that happened in 1945 has been a much bigge…

""War is illegal. This idea seems obvious." Well, was has always been a privilege for countries. It is absurd that some German generals were executed after WW2 for "fighting an aggressive" war (not talking about war crimes). Obviously the WW3 will make look WW2 like a piece of cake. "Increasing speed of operation marked each new weapons system, particularly the decision-making function (to strike or not to strike, wh…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIoBrob3bjI

Tom Lehrer - So Long Mom (A Song for WW III)

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#242

Post by sanderjd » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

zaksoup wrote: post #232

ABCLAW wrote: post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

I work on criminal justice reform and this is SO true. I cringe every time I hear these kinds of stats being brandished without context as evidence of our society 'working'. Ben Thompson is a particularly bad example of this, but it certainly seems like it's the folks 'winning' the conflicts that love to cite 'reduced conflict'.

I'm a Ben Thompson reader / listener, and I'm not sure which of his arguments you're referring to, but I'm intrigued by the premise. Would you mind throwing out some links and further commentary on this?

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#243

Post by pron » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

benbreen wrote: post #216

pron wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinker is much more nefarious (and you can know that by going to his talks, as I have, where he's more loose-tongued than in his books). He places such emphasis on the fact that the world is getting better as a rebuttal to "complainers" and political activists . The problem is not with his premise but with his conclusion. The world has been getting better (to the extent that it has) because people complain and are di…

I think you're not being charitable to Pinker here - he's not in my view "nefarious," and he's arguing his points in good faith. That said, I agree with you. I read Better Angels in its entirety and thought parts of it were very convincing. Others were deeply, provably wrong to anyone who is a professional historian (for instance, he let a bunch of Harvard RA's loose on some non-peer reviewed books purporting to stat…

Maybe he's arguing in good faith, but his conservative views are so deeply entrenched that even he fails to see how conservative he is. Such an extreme ideology that you yourself cannot distinguish from what you perceive to be neutral reasoning is the primary sign of a weak critical mind. I find Pinker to be one of the weakest public minds of our times for that reason, and for that I find him terribly boring. A writer who is so far behind the reader in understanding his own text makes the reading boring rather than interesting.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#244

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

crispinb wrote: post #201

sooheon wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is getting better for some people by some measures, and worse for others by other measures. What Pinker and Gates are attempting to impose is a tyranny of faux rationality--"an 800 pg book with sources up the wazoo say that the world is getting better, all these whiny poor folk must just be delusional".

Only very strong motivated reasoning would lead someone like Gates -- who would presumably consider himself 'rational' -- to take seriously a book written by an amateur historian in full-scale emeritus mode. Outside of his own field, Pinker's just a crank. He doesn't understand his sources, and isn't taken seriously by anyone that I've read so far who has the slightest interest in or understanding of historiography.…

[deleted]

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#245

Post by resu_nimda » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

ABCLAW wrote: post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

You acknowledged that he made a specific argument about violence, which is a fairly straightforward and measurable metric. He didn’t claim that “conflict is being better managed” or that “things are getting better,” which are extremely subjective and hard to quantify.

Your point about the legal system, while valid, seems irrelevant to his argument. And you didn’t provide any argument that the situation has gotten worse than before. Was there a time when “normal people” had better access to justice and ability to enforce their rights?

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#246

Post by pron » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

jahnu wrote: post #140

mseebach wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a certain rather loud, rather fashionable kind of "activist" who are if not directly claiming that everything is awful, then strongly evoking symbolism and imagery to that effect. To fix this, they want to take broad, radical action, basically to affect revolution. This approach is indefensible given the actual state of the world, and these activists are either confused about the facts, or cynically manipula…

Any examples of this kind of activist? Are they particularly common?

Sure. From the plebeians of ancient Rome, through the French revolutionaries and American abolitionists and feminists of the 19th century, to the feminist suffragists[1] of the early 20th century.

[1]: One of the things I always find hilarious is the constant refrain among conservatives is "well, the old generation was right but this one has gone too far!" despite the constant decline in the fervor of feminist activism for over a century now. :)

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#247

Post by darawk » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

ABCLAW wrote: post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

All that is true, but its important to define the comparison. Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence. The fact that our current system is imperfect does not mean it isn't better than it was.

That being said, I find Nassim Taleb's criticism of Pinker's ideas much more relevant: That you can't know what kind of distribution you're in until it's over. Violence may simply be becoming more fat tailed. The common case is low-violence, but with low probability periods of hyper-violence (e.g. nuclear war). There are decent a priori reasons to think this may be the case, and it's not something Pinker can effectively rule out.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#248

Post by gowld » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

krylon wrote: post #145

JorgeGT wrote: post #72

> Time spent doing laundry fell from 11.5 hours a week in 1920 to an hour and a half in 2014. This might sound trivial in the grand scheme of progress. But the rise of the washing machine has improved quality of life by freeing up time for people—mostly women—to enjoy other pursuits. This. I remember following Reddit AMAs of two centenarian women, women who remembered SS troops arriving at their village, who watched…

About ten years ago, my washing machine went kaputt, and due to complicated circumstances, I ended washing my clothes manually, for about two weeks, until I had a new washing machine. And my clothes were not very dirty, and I did not put all the effort into it that I could have. And still I understand these women. It is exhausting, boring, repetitive. Way worse than doing the dishes manually (which I already do not l…

Washing dishes is rather easy -- dishes are glazed ceramic, designed to be dirt-proof. Underclothing is designed to draw sweat from clothing, and outerclothing can't practically be made soil-proof since you don't want to wear ceramic armor all day.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#249

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #236

mseebach wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a certain rather loud, rather fashionable kind of "activist" who are if not directly claiming that everything is awful, then strongly evoking symbolism and imagery to that effect. To fix this, they want to take broad, radical action, basically to affect revolution. This approach is indefensible given the actual state of the world, and these activists are either confused about the facts, or cynically manipula…

> This approach is indefensible given the actual state of the world, and these activists are either confused about the facts, or cynically manipulating their followers for personal power. Except that, as any student of history knows, the current state of the world is what it is thanks almost entirely to people just like that (although historians generally view them in a better light than you do because of what they'v…

[deleted]

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#250

Post by pron » Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #161

pron wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinker is much more nefarious (and you can know that by going to his talks, as I have, where he's more loose-tongued than in his books). He places such emphasis on the fact that the world is getting better as a rebuttal to "complainers" and political activists . The problem is not with his premise but with his conclusion. The world has been getting better (to the extent that it has) because people complain and are di…

I don't think Pinker is against activists making the world better. But activists need to convince people that their ideas actually will improve things. Lots of activists have made the world better, but some have made it worse, despite having good intentions (see: eugenics, communism). If you're trying to sell people on the idea that status quo institutions like capitalism are bad, you have to compare it to the altern…

"The world" hasn't achieved anything on its own. People of precisely the kind Pinker dislikes and dismisses are those who have achieved those things for our world. They achieved it not by convincing others through theory, but through their strong beliefs. You're right, sometimes they failed miserably, but even those who've brought us to where we are today were ridiculed just as those who've failed.