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OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

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Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#101
post #45

How does SimCity2000 render the terrain? I know it's 2d isometric but any good article on the actual data structure/algorithm?

I'm also actually working on an unreleased to-be-open-source SimCity 2000 clone in C++ (which I am planning to call 21st Century Micropolis, after the existing, official open-source SimCity Classic release called Micropolis), so I've looked into how SC2K renders the screen. I'll describe it for drawing the whole map, since it's simpler, but you'd want to modify it to draw only the visible parts in an actual game. Dir…

Thanks! How do you handle different terrain heights?

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#102
post #2

Hmm - cool project. Don't want to be a buzzkill, but copyright? Should probably remove the assets to avoid a takedown.

I immediately cloned it for this reason just in case. Wanted to make sure I didn't miss the opportunity to play this game again in case they did a take down. Still have the old games, but I haven't had the willpower to learn how to use Wine.

Most SimCity 2000 discs come with the DOS version, the Windows 3.11 version, and the Windows 95 version. The DOS version runs just fine under DOSBox if you don't want to get into Wine too deeply.

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#103
post #16

Aside: I think this is the first game, or at least proto-game, I've ever seen written in Electron.

It's pretty trivial to run the original in DOSBox or Wine too... an open source remake has some appeal but when it requires many gigabytes more of memory to run when the original can do with 1MB, it's really a bit of a showstopper.

It's a bummer—I don't know about showstopper, though. The usual first goal for remakes like these is to get around the limitations from DOS and whatnot. Things like resolution and map size are easy targets and improve gameplay a bunch.

Perhaps some tools and ideas from this project will spark interest in a native OSS remake.

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#104
post #92
post #26

I enjoyed the first SimCity and I really enjoyed SimEarth. However, at some point I really stopped enjoying SimCity... and I'm not sure if it's that the game got more obsessively micro-managing or I just grew out of that style of game play entirely.

I was a Maxis geek as a kid, playing everything they put out right from SC2K. SC4 killed it for me when I began to get good at it, and ran into the infamous traffic bug. Above a certain population level, there was an inevitable scenario of traffic chaos, no matter the mitigations you attempted.

Funnily enough, Cities:Skylines also runs into trouble with big cities and traffic. It's hard to make a game about civil engineering playable for people who aren't civil engineers

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#105
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic, SC2K and SC3K were Will Wright games and didn't stress too much on the city micromanaging gameplay. They were plain and simple city builders. Things changed with SC4. Weirdly SCS and the last failed SimCity are probably closer in gameplay design and feel to the older titles than SC4 but the community hated them.

How do these official Sim City games compare to the newer game Cities: Skylines. That appears to be the spiritual successor. I like that that doesn't require an always-on connection, it also seems to have good reviews (87% on Steam) but how does it compare to the official Sim City games?

If you enjoy SimCity then definitely check out skylines. It's maybe not as realistic in some ways, and I think it's too easy, but there are lots of mods available so the possibilities really open up.

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#106
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that noticeable? I don't remember ever watching a 24 fps film thinking 'this is jerky'. Is it more about the lag between input and response than any jerking?

In a low-fi "turn based" game like SC, it'd be pretty tolerable as long as the cursor still moves at a normal speed. Anything with more animation or especially real-time input like in a first person game, if run at Additionally, in the past I didn't think 24FPS movies were jerky, but now that I've started looking, there are lots of scenes that definitely look stuttery to me. In particular, watch for "smooth" panning…

On the subject of movies, I remember hearing somewhere that Bruce Lee had to slow himself down for the cameras because if he moved like he actually fights, the 24fps cameras would just pick him up as a blur.

I'd love to see a martial arts movie shot at 60fps. That sounds like it would be the perfect use case for 60fps.

On a similar note, I understand that a lot of sports are broadcast in 60fps for this reason too.

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#107

Its very questionable to include the assets. The bottom of the readme says: > Includes assets and graphics extracted from the original SimCity 2000 Special Edition CD. These assets are NOT covered by the GNU General Public License used by this project and are copyright EA / Maxis. I'm including these assets in the hope that because the game has been made freely available at various points in time by EA, and because i…

OpenRA is reimplementation of the Red Alert game engine that support multiples games. They have their way to deal with the assets issue but I forgot what exact solution it is. At least RA is available for download for free for EA so its help too. Edit: « OpenRA is 100% free, and comes bundled with three distinct mods. When you run a mod for the first time the game can automatically download the original game assets,…

Reminds me of Forge, which is a fanmade computer implementation of Magic: The Gathering. It doesn't come with any card art, but after you start it up there's a menu item that'll let you download all the card art from a server.

(honestly, that probably isn't totally legal either, though)

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#108
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that noticeable? I don't remember ever watching a 24 fps film thinking 'this is jerky'. Is it more about the lag between input and response than any jerking?

In a low-fi "turn based" game like SC, it'd be pretty tolerable as long as the cursor still moves at a normal speed. Anything with more animation or especially real-time input like in a first person game, if run at Additionally, in the past I didn't think 24FPS movies were jerky, but now that I've started looking, there are lots of scenes that definitely look stuttery to me. In particular, watch for "smooth" panning…

> In a low-fi "turn based" game like SC

SimCity is real-time, not turn-based.

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#109
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do these official Sim City games compare to the newer game Cities: Skylines. That appears to be the spiritual successor. I like that that doesn't require an always-on connection, it also seems to have good reviews (87% on Steam) but how does it compare to the official Sim City games?

I'm not big on Skylines. It looks very pretty, but the agent-simulation model has a lot of issues versus how the older SimCity games worked. To work around the quirks of the "every sim is independent" aspect you have to do weird things with city design that feel counter intuitive for various reasons... for example, who does a city of 50K need a mass transit system? Garbage management has issues too. I will say this t…

> for example, who does a city of 50K need a mass transit system?

I think that has more to do with the fact that the game is developed by a European studio (Finnish, IIRC), and in Europe even smaller cities have decent mass transit systems, so it makes perfect sense to them that you should put mass transit in a city of 50K.

Edit to add: Doing a SimCity-style fixed grid layout with two-lane roads is a disaster in Skylines because it's a disaster in real life. There's a reason why real downtown areas are horribly congested. If you set up a proper street hierarchy with arterials, collectors, and local streets, you'll have much better traffic flow, just like in real life. The SimCity games never really cared much for letting you build different types of streets (SC4 came close, but not to the extent of Skylines), and the game itself made you place everything on a grid where every tile matters, diagonals are a waste of space, and curves are close to impossible. But Skylines has several different street types built in, and the game itself uses a more flexible layout engine that doesn't penalize you for doing curves and diagonals.

Also, the traffic AI is just poorly coded, and there are mods to replace it with better, such as Traffic Manager: President Edition. It's not a problem with the agent system; it's a problem with poor AI programming.

Here's a video I stumbled on comparing the vanilla traffic AI with the TMPE AI across various different types of intersections: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yITr127KZtQ

The first thing that jumped out at me is that the vanilla AI just doesn't know how to handle traffic lights. Some mods might as well be requirements for playing the game, and TMPE is one of them.

Re: OpenSC2K – An Open Source Remake of SimCity 2000

#110
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do these official Sim City games compare to the newer game Cities: Skylines. That appears to be the spiritual successor. I like that that doesn't require an always-on connection, it also seems to have good reviews (87% on Steam) but how does it compare to the official Sim City games?

I'm not big on Skylines. It looks very pretty, but the agent-simulation model has a lot of issues versus how the older SimCity games worked. To work around the quirks of the "every sim is independent" aspect you have to do weird things with city design that feel counter intuitive for various reasons... for example, who does a city of 50K need a mass transit system? Garbage management has issues too. I will say this t…

You can get better experiences by adding mods like "Rush Hour", "Realistic Population and Consumption", and "Traffic Manager: President Edition". General consensus though is that Skylines prioritizes "pretty" over "realism", which I'd agree is generally true. It's still the best current city builder, doubly so with mods.

> for example, who does a city of 50K need a mass transit system?

There's 2 reasons for this I'd say. The first and most significant, is simply people suck at planning traffic layouts, and this game is much more punishing than other city builders exactly because it simulates every citizen. One bad driver merging can back up literally thousands of other vehicles, which propagates it's way to other exits and intersections, just like real life.

This is made worse by citizens just being shitty drivers (even more so than reality) and not following traffic logic very well (merging across 3 lanes at the last second over and over!) and the inability to customize intersections. Traffic Manager: President Edition is an amazing overhaul of this system. The UI is a bit clunky, but you can set individual turning lane rules, timed traffic and pedestrian crossing lights (even timing rules that span several intersections!). Adding well timed traffic lights has turned huge messes of downtown areas of mine into very reasonable looking traffic, without needing to rework the roads or buildings.

The top post on the game's subreddit is a guide by a traffic engineer [0] and their city has an amaaaaaziiiing traffic flow.

But secondly, it's still a game and so it can't perfectly capture real life. A big part of why traffic is so much worse than real life is the time scale. A real world city may have 50x more people going to and from work than Cities Skylines, but they also have 50x longer to get there. I can't find specific numbers, but if a citizen doesn't reach their destination in just a few minutes they are either reset or may lose that job (or both). I know people who have a 90 minute commute, this is longer than an entire Skyline's citizen's day.

The traffic system by default also isn't tied into the day/night cycle (day/night was added to the game in a later patch and fleshed out more with an expansion). So citizens leave for work/school at all times of day making the traffic feel more active than it should be. The Rush Hour mod fixes this, for example, and at 9am you'll have disgusting backed up traffic and 3am an ambulance can cross your city in seconds because streets are barren.

Still, a good rule of thumb from C:S communities is to multiply your population by 10x and that's how large of a real-world city matches yours. (For example my 250k city runs more like a real-world 2.5million city).

> Garbage management has issues too.

My biggest problem here is that services like garbage and police don't seem to give a crap how close something is to them. My current "city" is a mountain valley with a busy downtown and dozens of little satellite towns in the mountain ridges. Constantly I run into problems like a fire in a small town, but instead of sending a firetruck from the local station, one comes in from downtown, and all the local trucks are sent to deal with some downtown emergency. It seems to get worse as time goes on, and leaving my city up and running for over a day or so leads to a complete failure of my garbage system as trucks service houses which are miles away, yet adjacent to another landfill (which is also servicing houses miles away rather than nearby).

The Rush hour mod has a setting to make Cims only search for jobs and goods locally, which works great but doesn't seem to affect the services in any way. I'd love some way to enable that, or set a max-distance-from-base for service vehicles, or not allowing cross-district service usage. Anything really.

[0 - content post] https://imgur.com/a/WdJim

[0 - reddit thread] https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/2zfx70/if_y...

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