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The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

economist.com

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Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#81

Post by eastWestMath »

mcguire wrote: post #59
thomasahle wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about giving the readers a better understanding of how China sees the West? These things can be complicated, and pointing out some of the forming events can be very helpful.

Some Chinese people are still cranky about the Opium Wars, some Irish folks still talk about the 800 year occupation, some Native Americans are still miffed about the whole killing and taking stuff thing. It may be news to some millennials in the tech industry, but the past isn't prologue. It isn't even past.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure a lot of IRA funding came out of Boston. Turns out there were children and grandchildren of potato famine refugees who were still pretty pissed - who’d have thunk it.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#82

Post by DonaldFisk »

awakeasleep wrote: post #51
Spooky23 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call it nationalist denial. Or deliberate ignorance. This type of nonsense is embedded in English accounts of the British Empire. Variants of the “white man’s burden” and the sacred principles of the market can be spun in all sorts of interesting ways. The most galling example of this that I’m familiar with is the Irish famine. Millions died of starvation in the midst of a record bumper crop for export. The British…

Another example is the opium poppy used as a symbol of Remembrance Day. It's a silly coincidence and was chosen because of the poem "in Flanders Fields". Never mind that a third of the population in some areas of India was literally starved to death to grow that exact, or what it did to China, or how it was the foundation of the British empire.

The field poppy (Papaver rhoeas), not the opium poppy (Papaver somniferum), is used as a symbol on Remembrance Day.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#83

Post by TheCoelacanth »

dogma1138 wrote: post #48
ben_w wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism, like libertarian capitalism, simplifies the human condition too much to win in a pure form. Both have important lessons, neither is sufficient. At least, neither is sufficient for now; I can image fully automated luxury space communism working, once AI is good enough.

A post scarcity society is likely to be inerently more libertarian than communist, true post scarcity does not need a centrally managed economy. Communism doesn’t simplify the human condition as much as it replaces it, the scary part of communism isn’t the economy but the eradication of the self in favor of a group identity.

Communism is not a centrally managed economy. It is an anarchistic form of society with no state. You might be confusing it with socialism which is what most states that are colloquially referred to as "Communist" really are. Socialism is supposed to be a short term form of government for transitioning to a communist society, but no real-world socialist state has made any significant progress at transitioning to communism.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#84

Post by analyst74 »

b6 wrote: post #25
Feniks wrote: post #20

History shapes culture who knew? America is still fighting the Civil War. But the Chinese don't blame the West for the decline of China and the fall of the empire. They blame the old corrupt elite. When Deng Xiaoping went abroad in the 80s he did his damnedest to appear cultured and in control.

> They blame the old corrupt elite. Hmm, I hope that's true. But there's also the "century of humiliation" thing going on, which, to my mind, is an attempt to divert blame away from China itself (basically Mao -- the greatest enemy China ever had) toward outsiders. I don't know to what degree people are buying it.

You have to understand that Chinese culture is very inward-looking. All the invasions, unless they end up ruling China like Mongolians and Manchurians, are merely considered external forces not too different from natural disasters.

Also, Chinese people don't see China as a single continuous entity like outsiders do, so most of the blame shifting doesn't have to go toward outside sources.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#85

Post by DonaldFisk »

appleiigs wrote: post #64
realPubkey wrote: post #13

This reminds me of the articles saying that germans like to use cash because of the inflation 100y ago. It's just not true and likely being written by someone who has never asked a single german/chinese.

Or... Hong Kong was given back only in 1997 which still in living memory.

Without asking its inhabitants whether that is what they wanted.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#87

Post by fredley »

hokus wrote: post #68

The most significant to me is that all the death destruction and suffering was all to further enrich some 5ish rich dudes. It is significant because this aspect of the west has not changed at all. Just look how our historians are happy to attribute such acts to countries(!???) Until we start attributing invasions to the people who wanted them, those who organized them and those who profited from them this wont change…

I wonder how many rich dudes are at the top of the opiate pyramid in the US at the moment, profiting from the current crisis.

It's not an attitude I've come across before—attributing these actions to individuals rather than nations. It's certainly an interesting one.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#88

Post by njarboe »

fredley wrote: post #87
hokus wrote: post #68

The most significant to me is that all the death destruction and suffering was all to further enrich some 5ish rich dudes. It is significant because this aspect of the west has not changed at all. Just look how our historians are happy to attribute such acts to countries(!???) Until we start attributing invasions to the people who wanted them, those who organized them and those who profited from them this wont change…

I wonder how many rich dudes are at the top of the opiate pyramid in the US at the moment, profiting from the current crisis. It's not an attitude I've come across before—attributing these actions to individuals rather than nations. It's certainly an interesting one.

I certainly have heard many people blame the Iraq war on Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Powell. Seems to me that the thesis is basically correct.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#89

Post by radicaldreamer »

fredley wrote: post #87
hokus wrote: post #68

The most significant to me is that all the death destruction and suffering was all to further enrich some 5ish rich dudes. It is significant because this aspect of the west has not changed at all. Just look how our historians are happy to attribute such acts to countries(!???) Until we start attributing invasions to the people who wanted them, those who organized them and those who profited from them this wont change…

I wonder how many rich dudes are at the top of the opiate pyramid in the US at the moment, profiting from the current crisis. It's not an attitude I've come across before—attributing these actions to individuals rather than nations. It's certainly an interesting one.

The attention economy is similar, with a small number of rich dudes at the top and vast addiction at the base.
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