The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West • Hacker News Board

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#41

Post by booleandilemma » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

ptx wrote: post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

I can’t think of a succinctly named fallacy, but the phrase “you can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs” comes to mind.

If no one comes up with anything let’s call it “omelette making”.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#42

Post by FabHK » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

thomasahle wrote: post #31

realPubkey wrote: post #13

This reminds me of the articles saying that germans like to use cash because of the inflation 100y ago. It's just not true and likely being written by someone who has never asked a single german/chinese.

It doesn't seem unlikely that there could be cultural phenomenon rooted in events a hundred years ago. It wouldn't be easy to prove though, and most people affected wouldn't be aware, so asking people on the street would be worthless.

> It doesn't seem unlikely that there could be cultural phenomen[a] rooted in events a hundred years ago.

Absolutely!

1. It's quite possible that Germans still have an aversion to inflation due to the 1920's episode of hyperinflation in the Weimarer Republik. My grandmother often spoke of it, she had vivid memories of it, as she was selling groceries in the local "Konsum", had to put up new price tags every hour, and saw the suffering of everyone (including her own family). She liked to recount how her "Volksschule" teacher (in a poor neighbourhood) taught them hundreds and thousands, and then briefly mentioned millions and billions, but glossed over them saying "You'll never have to use them anyway."

(Thus, there are people alive, if I may make that claim for myself, that have heard (visceral) first-hand reports of it.)

2. There is this beautiful paper demonstrating that people have more trust in government and bureaucracy in areas that were part of the (long defunct) Habsburger Empire, even if they (and their counterparts on the other side of the old border) have now lived a century in the same modern country.

"The Empire Is Dead, Long Live the Empire! Long-Run Persistence of Trust and Corruption in the Bureaucracy"

http://ftp.iza.org/dp5584.pdf

3.

> > It's just not true and likely being written by someone who has never asked a single german/chinese.

Many Germans or Chinese have some sort of consciousness of their history; maybe you haven't asked them.

4. And, by the way, you're also formed by your history (via the culture surrounding you) if you don't consciously notice it. Your statement above is as naive as that of people that claim not to be influenced by advertisement, say, or their biological roots, just because they don't notice it.

EDIT: typo

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#43

Post by eecc » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:14 PM UTC

ptx wrote: post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

I don’t think it’s a fallacy nor is the quoted person trying to downplay and somehow minimize an ethical judgement. She did use “greedy” and “pragmatic”, maybe “callous” would have been even cleared but I wonder if it’s in some other passage from the book from which this quote has been extracted. ;)

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#44

Post by wazoox » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:14 PM UTC

PuffinBlue wrote: post #38

jotm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a MasterCard or Visa was harder in Germany than it should've been. They're optional and cost extra, standard debit cards for a checking account are Cirrus/Maestro, which can't be used to pay online or abroad or in many places. It was easier to just use them to withdraw cash. Sparkasse for some reason gave me a MasterCard that had it's own account, so I had to transfer money from the checking account to the ca…

It's maybe more that shops/businesses didnt accept payment by much other than cash, bank transfer or ec card. Even national chains, until very recently, didnt accept credit cards.

Yup, 2 years ago I went into a large chain store in Germany to buy a camera, no credit card accepted, in a place selling mostly expensive gear such as cameras, laptops, dishwashers... Boggled my mind. Fortunately I had enough cash this time.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#45

Post by debt » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

ptx wrote: post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

False dilemma

“A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#46

Post by FabHK » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

jotm wrote: post #37

garmaine wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, having traveled extensively in Europe the Americas, and Asia, Germany does use cash far more than other countries even in Europe, although yes not to the extent cash is preferred in Asia.

Getting a MasterCard or Visa was harder in Germany than it should've been. They're optional and cost extra, standard debit cards for a checking account are Cirrus/Maestro, which can't be used to pay online or abroad or in many places. It was easier to just use them to withdraw cash. Sparkasse for some reason gave me a MasterCard that had it's own account, so I had to transfer money from the checking account to the ca…

There's a well developed banking system that allows for fast, cheap, and easy transfer, standing orders, and direct debit. Checks fell out of favour many decades ago, unlike in some more, well, traditional societies. There was the "ec-card", then Cirrus/Maestro debit cards, now cash card, which allow for cheap immediate cashless payment.

Why would one want to let a large part of the economy run through oligopolistic credit card providers, just to let them skim some 2% or 3% off it? It's absurd, if you think about it.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#47

Post by yorwba » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #16

erikb wrote: post #4

It is not true. It's just that politicians need official reasons to do what they do. And it's a great thing to use historical reasons because nobody can really counter them. Not a single Chinese person I know thinks about Westerners as sources of the Opium Wars and therefore as enemies. The opinions move between "West is so rich, let's be more like them" and "We are nearly back to our old glory, now also learn some o…

This is the official narrative that is being sold to the people and being thought at school. The opium wars are a very big part of Chinese history and current culture I don’t know who do you know In China but a few elites educated in the West are not a good sample. Look at the average inner city population in tier 1-3 cities, look at the recent changes in the attitude towards foreigners in China this is definitely an…

> recent changes in the attitude towards foreigners in China

Could you elaborate? As a foreigner in China, this seems pretty relevant.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#48

Post by dogma1138 » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #11

StudentStuff wrote: post #2

Communism will win

Communism, like libertarian capitalism, simplifies the human condition too much to win in a pure form. Both have important lessons, neither is sufficient. At least, neither is sufficient for now; I can image fully automated luxury space communism working, once AI is good enough.

A post scarcity society is likely to be inerently more libertarian than communist, true post scarcity does not need a centrally managed economy.

Communism doesn’t simplify the human condition as much as it replaces it, the scary part of communism isn’t the economy but the eradication of the self in favor of a group identity.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#49

Post by saint_fiasco » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

ptx wrote: post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

I don't think it is a fallacy. At most it is pedantic.

She makes a good point about the difference between banal evil born from apathy and active evil born from hate. The difference is important not because one is morally better than the other, but because the strategy to prevent them is different in each case.

Active hateful evil is relatively easy to prevent, just don't be a dick. But preventing the banal apathetic kind takes more active effort.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#50

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Feb 03, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

ptx wrote: post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

I call it nationalist denial. Or deliberate ignorance.

This type of nonsense is embedded in English accounts of the British Empire. Variants of the “white man’s burden” and the sacred principles of the market can be spun in all sorts of interesting ways.

The most galling example of this that I’m familiar with is the Irish famine. Millions died of starvation in the midst of a record bumper crop for export. The British justification for deliberate inaction was and for many still is a mixture of denial, high minded debate about the role of government, and a deep concern for keeping Irish wretches out of a cycle of dependency.