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After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

nytimes.com

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Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#281

Post by refurb »

Johnny555 wrote: post #233
tomohawk wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to put a fine point on it, but you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever seen someone who is in so much pain that they're projectile vomiting just because of the pain? I have. There is pain, and there is PAIN. If you can get by with some NSAIDS, then you're just in mild pain. This is not likely to interfere with healing. This is the kind of pain the person is talking about in the article. It's scary…

My point is that the doctor said she she not only needed a week's worth of vicodin to manage the pain for recovery, but she'd likely need more. Yet she really only needed zero vicodin. Just like the person in the NYTimes article. But thanks for your illuminating anecdote of someone who had some procedure and ignored some medical advice and took something else than the something that was prescribed.

Why does it surprise you? The doctor is probably basing his/her advice off what they most commonly see.

Are you saying your doctor should have known in advance your wife was an edge case with high pain tolerance?

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#282

Post by dkersten »

maxxxxx wrote: post #199
_agcx wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have noticed how the vast majority of my American friends do not express any reactive need to unnecessarily take pharmaceuticals (especially painkillers, in the case of pain) when they have a medical problem. Does my single anecdotal datapoint negate your single anecdotal datapoint?

I guess we need a third anecdote to make a final determination.

I’ll throw another spanner in to mess things up: I am European and know other Europeans who feel compelled to take painkillers for any little thing (I personally will take them only if the pain is really severe or interferes with work or such, which is quite rare typically).

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#283

Post by eropple »

throwaway34241 wrote: post #269
eropple wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experience of pain (and I'm separating this from the dopamine-release thing for people who groove on that sort of thing) is, for my money, a useful training facility for willpower and restraint. Separate from the pain-as-warning-signs noted by 'lukeschlather, few things hurt that much and the fact that you are not the master of even yourself is a valuable reminder. The experience of being uncomfortable is not a b…

People talking positively about pain (and especially immediate post-surgical pain as in the article) makes me uneasy. Sure, some level of pain is useful as a warning sign. And wanting painkillers primarily to avoid resting is unreasonable. But, if there is too much pain, it will cause extreme stress during the day and they will probably be unable to sleep at night - it is hard to imagine this being beneficial for rec…

> I don't think this means that the same is true for all procedures, and suggesting that people just make peace with it or whatever without knowing what the level is seems wrong

It's like I literally expressed that? Maybe I made it trickier to parse by referring primarily to chronic pain--if you want to lump extreme, trauma-induced pain into that? Sure. When lives are on the line, whatever, do what needs to be done; we have doctors to make educated decisions based on the information available.

But I will contend most Americans--and my observations are largely limited to us--mostly harm themselves in the effort to avoid what we have largely decided is pain and is in many ways merely discomfort. And I tend to think that that ramps up into greater problems along the way.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#284

Post by BLKNSLVR »

brandonmenc wrote: post #230

Cue the anti-drug (really, anti-medicine) comments from all the people who have never encountered chronic debilitating pain, either personally or in a loved one.

This article isn't about chronic debilitating pain. It's about the fear of pain and the culturally normalised behaviour of pre-over-medicating.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#285

Post by toomanybeersies »

coldtea wrote: post #140
rascul wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on how there's no such thing as a former addict? I'm curious, as there are a couple substances I used to be addicted to but am not any longer.

It's a belief of some advocacy groups, like AA and such. In real life, there are lots of drug addicts and alcoholics that managed to recover for the rest of their life just fine, including drinking in moderation for social reasons without relapsing (as opposed the teetotallism stance advocated by said groups).

Not to say it's a bad thing to drink after recovering from alcoholism, but wouldn't that just be managed addiction?

My uncle is an alcoholic, but has managed to drink at a reasonable level (not healthy, but doesn't socially harm him, e.g. drink driving, losing a job) for the past few decades. He'll crack his first beer at 10 AM, but manages to keep a good level of control.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#286

Post by syshum »

eropple wrote: post #190
syshum wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>This is why trained professionals exist. This is literally why. Trained Professional exist to advise and recommend. Even in healthcare doctors are not dictators, they advise their patients on the best course of action it is then up to the individual to either follow that advice or not. I assume you oppose that, and believe doctors should have legal authority over their patients who should not be given any choices a…

> I assume you oppose that, and believe doctors should have legal authority over their patients This is a weakly constructed strawman. The gulf between doctors compelling behavior and society not enabling obviously self-destructive ones is wide. Which you should know. And yet, the disingenuity is p. strong in here, so I'm gonna go with do know rather than should know . > So my question to you is why to you hate indiv…

>>And the freedom to ramp yourself into opioid dependence is not a meaningful freedom.

Nor is that a freedom I am speaking of, however the idea it should be a crime to "ramp yourself into opioid dependence" is unethical on its face as that is more of a medical and mental health problem not one that should be solved with criminality

I do however think it is a "meaningful freedom" for one to be allowed to judge for themselves what medication and/or pain management they should use in a given situation.

Further the War on Drugs as a directly result of prohibitionist policies have directly lead to more suffering and lose of "meaningful freedoms" for non-drug users than the abuse of the drug ever did.

I think it selfish is prohibitionist to not look at the big picture, to not see the Failure that the War on Drugs is, to not see the Extreme Harm the war on drugs in inflected not only on the US but the world, and double down on failed prohibitionist policies

>> in my experience the proportion of people who crow about "individualism" and who aren't in it to hurt those with fewer advantages than they have is a rounding error.

I must be in the rounding error then, I support many things that help people with fewer advantages, I believe these goals can be accomplished with liberty and respect of individual,

I also have a good understanding of history, and know that Authoritarian policies like the one you advocate for are often hardest on those not in the majority, on those that as "fewer advantages", Contrary to rose colored opinions authoritarians have, authoritarian polices are harmful to the less fortunate this has been proven countless time by countless authoritarian governments through out world history

Freedom and Liberty leads to prosperity, not Centralized Authoritarian Control

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#287

Post by megablast »

problems wrote: post #26
cal5k wrote: post #7

I had jaw surgery recently... while I wouldn't describe it as incredibly "painful", particularly since everything was numb (they have to slice through nerves for this procedure), it was really uncomfortable and stressful for a couple of days afterwards. I wasn't at all ashamed to take percocet after the surgery. Could I have lived without them? Sure. Did they turn me into an instant addict? Of course not. This story…

Yeah, I question the idea that it's beneficial to experience pain - why should I? Especially if it's going to cost me days of my life that I could do something with. Maybe not go out, but at least be able to catch up on some of the more passive content... seems like a needless waste of life.

Oh of course. And watching tv is not a waste.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#288

Post by fastball »

syshum wrote: post #188
pkilgore wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hows that? It's my understanding that in a single payer system you are still allowed to pay for whatever you want or buy supplemental insurance to cover types of care the baseline single payer system will not.

Easy, once there is even a "baseline" of health services that becomes a platform to start restricting and taxing other things deemed to effect health. Things like smoking, Soft Drinks, high fat or high sugar foods, exercise mandates, and a variety of other public policies around "health" become justified because of public funding for healthcare. Now I am sure most people including you are going to agree with these pu…

Smoking is not illegal in most places, and realistically there is an argument that it should be (at least in public) because you don't have a right to expose other people to your habit.

I don't know a single country that has socialized medicine that has illegalized high fat/sugar products or has mandated exercise. If you could point me towards instances where single payer healthcare is being used to outlaw/force such things, I would much appreciate it.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#289

Post by snotrockets »

sannee wrote: post #275
snotrockets wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of them (Acetaminophen is the US name for Paracetamol) are highly dangerous, even in small dosages. Paracetamol poisoning can kill within a day, and the lethal dosage is equivalent to about 20 pills. Ibuprofen is proven to cause heart attacks & stroke. Your suggestion is the perfect example of why over the counter drugs as so dangerous: a Dr or a pharmacist is aware of the dangers, that we (being the public) may…

> the lethal dosage is equivalent to about 20 pills. It's really hard to accidentally eat 20 pills, especially when the usual does is about 4 per day...

Recommended dosage, which most people take more of – take two every couple of hours, and you're going to need a new liver. And when you're in pain, it's easy to loose count.

Which is why in some countries, the maximum amount allowed over the counter is 16ct or so (sometimes a bit more when bought from a pharmacist who can make sure the buyer is aware of the dangers). It is irresponsible to sell a 1,000 ct bottle of pills, yet the grocery store near my house does, over the counter even.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#290

Post by refurb »

"Time is a flat circle. Everything we have done or will do we will do over and over and over again- forever."

For those of you who were around in the late 80's early 90's. Today's moral panic about opioids will give you a chuckle.

Back in the 1980's opioids were the devil and many patients, even in hospice, had undertreated pain due to fear of addiction.

In the 1990's it dawned on doctors that maybe they should be a little more aggressive in treating pain. It made sense. Pain can slow recovery as it can leave patients immobile. In addition, it's criminal to have someone suffer in pain when you can prevent it.

So doctor's prescribed more and things worked out fine. Then they went to far and prescribed heavy narcotics where they weren't really needed. In addition, the public mood shifted towards opioids (as it had shifted towards cocaine in the 1980's). Who needs to buy heroin when you can do a doc to write you a script for 100 80mg Oxycotin?

So the crackdown begins. We have hospitals stating they won't give out anything more than Tylenol or Ibuprofen.

I predict in the next decade we'll start the whole process all over again. Patients in desperate pain won't be adequately treated. There will be a public outcry and opioids will become "tools that can be appropriately use for all types of pain."

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