After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea • Hacker News Board

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#181

Post by menacingly » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

My wife was adamant that she not receive opiates after both c-sections. At the first hospital, the nurses were outwardly hostile toward her decision. "Why wouldn't you want medicine? I don't think you understand. You've had _abdominal surgery_. Do you understand that?"

She asked for NSAIDs and they refused, saying they would have to speak to her doctor in the morning. She waited it out and the doctor came to visit. He was not aware of the request, and was as appalled by the exchange as I think any reasonable person would be.

It's not just that they're handing drugs out, they're actively scaring people who refuse them.

As to the outcome, I don't think of my wife as a particularly "tough" person, but she felt fine with NSAIDs and recommends them to other women having the surgery.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#182

Post by eropple » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #174

eropple wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a compelling reason for codeine to be OTC in the first place? It's an addictive opiate.

This is the wrong question. The question should be is their a compelling reason to make it Rx Only, and people that support making it Prescription only have the requirement to provide evidence to support making it RX only. The fact that is "addictive" is also not enough IMO

People are neither medically qualified to evaluate opioid use nor, when in a situation where they may be necessary, personally capable of evaluating their situation. This is why trained professionals exist. This is literally why.

Asking whether there is an argument for an addictive opiate with significant health impacts and the opiate-consistent tolerance growth that leads to self-medication and increased dosage to be available without medical consultation is the "wrong question"--to somebody whose posts throughout this thread are unempathic, pull-the-ladder-up-behind-us, so-brave stances that project personal (theoretical and probably wrong) resistance to addiction onto societal policy.

I will take that as a compliment.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#183

Post by Strudelnoggin » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #95

Related: some studies have found that opioids are no better than ibuprofen+acetaminophen: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11/as-epidemic-rages-er... And I believe it. My wife had somewhat involved oral surgery (1 regular extraction plus removal of 2 impacted molars embedded in her jaw - it was difficult enough that they said a broken jaw during the procedure was a possible complication. The doctor prescribed a w…

I agree. In my experience, specifically Vicodin, does almost nothing for inflammation. Ibuprofen has consistently proven more effective when it came to actual pain.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#184

Post by eropple » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #123

pkilgore wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hows that? It's my understanding that in a single payer system you are still allowed to pay for whatever you want or buy supplemental insurance to cover types of care the baseline single payer system will not.

I don't think this is the popular understanding of "single payer" by its advocates in the USA. They think it means "I get any medical care I want, any time, with no waiting, for free."

This is a disingenuous characterization of single-payer advocacy in this country. Nobody-but-nobody claims scarcity doesn't exist; the single-payer argument is to deny that the fitness function for who-doesn't-die-from-preventable-disease should be the person with a bigger bank account.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#185

Post by ringwalt » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:06 PM UTC

stevebmark wrote: post #129

> I didn’t mention that I use ibuprofen like candy Never, ever become like this person. Do not make a habit out of taking ibuprofen and assuming it's benign. If you have to take painkillers every day to function then something else is wrong and you need to address that. NSAIDs alter chemical production in your body and over the long term can cause permanent damage.

Do you want ulcers? Because this is how you get ulcers.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#186

Post by syshum » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:09 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #182

syshum wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong question. The question should be is their a compelling reason to make it Rx Only, and people that support making it Prescription only have the requirement to provide evidence to support making it RX only. The fact that is "addictive" is also not enough IMO

People are neither medically qualified to evaluate opioid use nor, when in a situation where they may be necessary, personally capable of evaluating their situation. This is why trained professionals exist. This is literally why. Asking whether there is an argument for an addictive opiate with significant health impacts and the opiate-consistent tolerance growth that leads to self-medication and increased dosage to b…

>>This is why trained professionals exist. This is literally why.

Trained Professional exist to advise and recommend. Even in healthcare doctors are not dictators, they advise their patients on the best course of action it is then up to the individual to either follow that advice or not. I assume you oppose that, and believe doctors should have legal authority over their patients who should not be given any choices and should be compelled to do anything the doctor orders

So my question to you is why to you hate individualism and individual freedom? Following that how far does that extend, to you believe in a pure technocracy where decisions and public policy are selected on the basis of "trained professionals " in their areas of responsibility, particularly scientific knowledge with out considerations for personal liberty, rights or choices?

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#187

Post by wirrbel » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

calvano915 wrote: post #91

zython wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This make me think: Could this behaviour be influenced by US-american pharma corporations being allowed to run (TV-)ads on prescription medications ?

Pharma ads play a role but hardly explain this behavior. I believe a primary aspect is simply that Americans (including myself) expect and are expected to fill every waking moment with productivity or similar, rather than having flexibility to take a few hours/days/etc off to allow for healing and/or exploration of causalities; we instead use coping strategies and even with lackluster results continue down that road,…

I think a lot of this behaviour can be attributed to how the US treats sick leave - unpaid.

However, the quality and quantity of medication ads in the US has truly amazed me when I visited. I wouldn't want to be a hypochondriac over the big pond, because the TV ads were so suggestive.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#188

Post by syshum » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:14 PM UTC

pkilgore wrote: post #98

syshum wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why I also oppose single payer, but that is a whole other topic. The fact that Single Payer is used to make those justifications is one of my primary reasons to oppose it

Hows that? It's my understanding that in a single payer system you are still allowed to pay for whatever you want or buy supplemental insurance to cover types of care the baseline single payer system will not.

Easy, once there is even a "baseline" of health services that becomes a platform to start restricting and taxing other things deemed to effect health. Things like smoking, Soft Drinks, high fat or high sugar foods, exercise mandates, and a variety of other public policies around "health" become justified because of public funding for healthcare.

Now I am sure most people including you are going to agree with these public policies but again I am an individualist and believe in personal choice and freedom rare in today world of Nanny State's and collectivism

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#189

Post by atombender » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:15 PM UTC

ringwalt wrote: post #185

stevebmark wrote: post #129

> I didn’t mention that I use ibuprofen like candy Never, ever become like this person. Do not make a habit out of taking ibuprofen and assuming it's benign. If you have to take painkillers every day to function then something else is wrong and you need to address that. NSAIDs alter chemical production in your body and over the long term can cause permanent damage.

Do you want ulcers? Because this is how you get ulcers.

Interestingly, in Europe, NSAIDs like ibuprofen are frequently paired with vitamin C, because the addition of vitamin C has been shown to protect the stomach from damage [1]. Not sure why this apparently doesn't exist in the US.

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-galland-md/aspirin-and-vi...

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#190

Post by eropple » Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #186

eropple wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are neither medically qualified to evaluate opioid use nor, when in a situation where they may be necessary, personally capable of evaluating their situation. This is why trained professionals exist. This is literally why. Asking whether there is an argument for an addictive opiate with significant health impacts and the opiate-consistent tolerance growth that leads to self-medication and increased dosage to b…

>>This is why trained professionals exist. This is literally why. Trained Professional exist to advise and recommend. Even in healthcare doctors are not dictators, they advise their patients on the best course of action it is then up to the individual to either follow that advice or not. I assume you oppose that, and believe doctors should have legal authority over their patients who should not be given any choices a…

> I assume you oppose that, and believe doctors should have legal authority over their patients

This is a weakly constructed strawman. The gulf between doctors compelling behavior and society not enabling obviously self-destructive ones is wide.

Which you should know. And yet, the disingenuity is p. strong in here, so I'm gonna go with do know rather than should know.

> So my question to you is why to you hate individualism and individual freedom?

I "hate" individualism because I find selfishness to be base; in my experience the proportion of people who crow about "individualism" and who aren't in it to hurt those with fewer advantages than they have is a rounding error. And the freedom to ramp yourself into opioid dependence is not a meaningful freedom.

> with out considerations for personal liberty, rights or choices?

This degree of oh so you must believe silliness is some /r/iamverysmart stuff. C'mon.