Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 421 posts

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#251

Post by tialaramex »

dpflan wrote: post #143
jjeaff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

I agree that there is no "one-size-fits-all" medical solution, but perhaps having this base-line allows building up when discussed with one's doctor - the article does not discuss this post-operation re-negotiation of how to manage the pain. Perhaps some HNers have experience with a similar situation that they could share.

It varies by doctor. Usually, the more awful stuff they have to actually do, the less willing they are to issue pain pills for minor inconsequential things.

The guy who operated on my penis gave me a grab bag of pills that went right up to serious prescription pain killers and said just to call by if I needed more. I never even took the first day's pills, it barely hurt at all, but then he's a penis surgeon, it's not even essential to _have_ a penis, half the population don't have one so how important can that surgery be?

The guy who used to be my dentist before he retired was a Max Fac surgeon in his day job, dentist was how he relaxed before the weekend. So, normally he's putting back together ruined faces from car accidents and that sort of thing. Need a filling? "I can numb that, but it's in your lower jaw, and it's not touching the root, so I suggest we go without, then you won't drool for the rest of the day". "OK, but it will hurt?" "Barely at all, slight discomfort, weird sensation, no real pain". He was right, it was fine, definitely worth the small amount of discomfort to be in and out quickly and not drooling like an idiot.

On the other hand, when I was a kid I got hit by a car (my fault), they used Entonox (medical laughing gas) back then, I was high as a kite, and given the car smashed me good, that was probably the right call. So I'm not saying "I never use pain killers" but more like "I think pain killers are something to reserve for when it's really bad, not the first thing to reach for every time".

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#252

Post by walshemj »

dpflan wrote: post #143
jjeaff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

I agree that there is no "one-size-fits-all" medical solution, but perhaps having this base-line allows building up when discussed with one's doctor - the article does not discuss this post-operation re-negotiation of how to manage the pain. Perhaps some HNers have experience with a similar situation that they could share.

Well from experience 3 ops 2 minor 1 major in the UK last year they normally ask you to rate your pain on a 1 -10 scale and base meds partially on that.

I seem to be lucky and don't feel much pain so did not need any really strong painkillers after the first day or so and Tylenol made me nauseous so I stopped taking them.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#253

Post by andai »

phjesusthatguy3 wrote: post #151
jjeaff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

I wonder if you have ever actually been about to die or, rather, you felt as if you were going to die but were in no actual danger.

Not GP but I have, and I wonder why you ask?

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#254

Post by andai »

blfr wrote: post #156
dpflan wrote: post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

I've heard it somewhere... Now imagine your pain as a white ball of healing light That's right, your pain The pain itself is a white ball of healing light

I laughed until I realized, wait you're right! I've noticed that the healing process seems to accelerate and inflammation is reduced when I put my attention on the pain (which takes practice, as the natural tendency is to try and escape it).

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#255

Post by Angostura »

kurthr wrote: post #236
dpflan wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there is no "one-size-fits-all" medical solution, but perhaps having this base-line allows building up when discussed with one's doctor - the article does not discuss this post-operation re-negotiation of how to manage the pain. Perhaps some HNers have experience with a similar situation that they could share.

I have had my teeth filled by a dentist that didn't "believe" in novocaine. Luckily, he died before I had any significant issues, and I had a later dentist that did it correctly. If you are doubtful of the usefulness of pain management while receiving a filling, you can try it yourself. I'm perfectly understanding the concern for long term morpohine derivatives for treating post-surgical pain (although there are plen…

> Luckily, he died before I had any significant issues

Did they find his drill embedded in his occipital lobe?

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#256

Post by znpy »

jjeaff wrote: post #136
dpflan wrote: post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

I think I have found an american.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#257

Post by PhasmaFelis »

I hope they're not just knee-jerk going "pain is a part of life" for everything. I had surgery to set a broken ankle last year, and the first night I was nearly in agony after taking a prescribed Vicodin. I can't imagine how bad it would have been if they'd tried to fob me off with ibuprofen.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#258

Post by znpy »

akira2501 wrote: post #213
dpark wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dentist in California said he had several patients from Eastern Europe and Russia who had dental treatment like this, and their teeth were all mangled from treatment without anesthesia. He had done numerous re-drilling’s and re-fillings and root canals on these patients to deal with decay in teeth that had already been treated in their home countries. They had decay underneath fillings because the original treatme…

> They had decay underneath fillings because the original treatment had essentially only gone as deep as the patient could stand. In the middle of a root-canal my anesthetic completely wore off. I was able to feel the nerve root in my tooth being twisted up into a metal file and snapped out, along with all the canal filing and packing that happens afterwards. White-hot all-encompassing pain. There's no way any of tho…

Thanks for the nightmares.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#259

Post by snotrockets »

walshemj wrote: post #247
dpflan wrote: post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

Agreed with ibrofen but why not take parcetamol

Possible damage to the liver.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#260

Post by eropple »

problems wrote: post #246
eropple wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experience of pain (and I'm separating this from the dopamine-release thing for people who groove on that sort of thing) is, for my money, a useful training facility for willpower and restraint. Separate from the pain-as-warning-signs noted by 'lukeschlather, few things hurt that much and the fact that you are not the master of even yourself is a valuable reminder. The experience of being uncomfortable is not a b…

This seems to me to be entirely backwards. If you appreciate creativity, don't you want to have as much time as possible to experience and enjoy the world around you? To learn? To create? Why would you spend the day stuck in bed feeling like shit, unable to do anything but watch TV when you could easily solve that and do more?

There is a joke about Americans (which I extend to "most people", and definitely to most technical people I know): if one is to stop being stimulated from outside, then one runs the very real risk of having to consider what is inside. I tend to consider the cavalier American use of painkillers to be in that "stimulated from outside" bucket--and I try very hard to be unafraid of considering what might be inside.

I already don't watch TV when I feel poorly (or in general). I might work--usually on something that I care about, so as to make me feel good that I have done it. Or I might read. If circumstances are uncomfortable enough that concentrating is difficult, then I know I need to sleep. If sleep is very difficult--not merely difficult--due to pain, then sure, then painkillers are on the table for me. Otherwise, why would I try to change how I feel externally?

Painkillers do not change the underlying state. If it is something you literally cannot bear, then sure, get some help. But I have learned over time that the world includes discomfort and pain and that they're really not that bad, most of the time. The world around me includes me. And it includes the need to be mindful about me, too. This is part of that.

Post reply on HN