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After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

nytimes.com

241–250 of 421 posts

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#241
post #8

I always get in a arguments with my EU acquaintances over pain management topics. The idea that is a "good" to suffer with pain instead of taking pain killers is abhorrent to me.

As mentioned in the article, she was given a painkiller (ibuprofen, a NSAID). In much of Europe, doctors are far more reluctant to use opioid painkillers, granted.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to suffer with pain needlessly, it's another if the treatment of pain could have long term harmful effects, e.g., addition to opioids. I had impacted wisdom teeth and needed dental surgery. The dentist gave me a couple of codeines to take home but I never took them. The day after the local anesthesia wore off was miserable, but it became easily manageable after that. I found a lot of times the fear of…

Not to mention, there are plenty of safer viable alternatives. Is ibuprofen or acetaminophen as effective at preventing pain as oxycodone for most people? Probably not, but they're good enough for most wisdom teeth extractions, a common operation that unfortunately results in many opioid addictions. I had some particularly difficult extractions so I took some ibuprofen for a few weeks to make eating manageable, but a…

Do dentists in the US actually give out opioid painkillers for wisdom teeth extraction?

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#243
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why my individualism, and Self Ownership come it to play as I feel that should be my choice if I want to take the risk, it should be up to me if the pain is server enough to warrant opioids or not as I am the one experiencing the pain. Every person reacts differently to procedures and to pain, some people having their wisdom teeth removed may not be painful, others it might be terrible pain. It should be up t…

If you're paying for it, I agree with you. But that's not the case in Germany, as they have a single payer healthcare system. That "easy solution" costs other people money.

Opioid painkillers aren’t necessarily particularly expensive. They are considerably more dangerous than NSAIDs, though, hence the reluctance to prescribe them where not absolutely necessary. It’s not a money thing.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#244
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Not at all” is too strong [edit: and actually it was “not all” which is correct and even an understatement], but it’s true it’s a small (and declining) contribution: http://www.hspm.org/countries/germany28082014/Lists/LivingHi... However, that table doesn’t include subsidies for the SHI. All in all, 10% is funded with taxes. http://www.hspm.org/countries/germany28082014/livinghit.aspx...

The parent said not all , which means not entirely . Adding at in the middle changes the meaning substantially.

I just noticed that I misread the comment.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#246
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I question the idea that it's beneficial to experience pain - why should I? Especially if it's going to cost me days of my life that I could do something with. Maybe not go out, but at least be able to catch up on some of the more passive content... seems like a needless waste of life.

The experience of pain (and I'm separating this from the dopamine-release thing for people who groove on that sort of thing) is, for my money, a useful training facility for willpower and restraint. Separate from the pain-as-warning-signs noted by 'lukeschlather, few things hurt that much and the fact that you are not the master of even yourself is a valuable reminder. The experience of being uncomfortable is not a b…

This seems to me to be entirely backwards. If you appreciate creativity, don't you want to have as much time as possible to experience and enjoy the world around you? To learn? To create? Why would you spend the day stuck in bed feeling like shit, unable to do anything but watch TV when you could easily solve that and do more?

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#247
post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

Agreed with ibrofen but why not take parcetamol

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#248
post #136
post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

Yes I managed after a kidney transplant on the odd paracetamol after the first 24 hours or so.

The pain buster don't realy do that much as neither did the oral morphine

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#249
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife fusses at me when I mention I've had a headache for the past X hours and I haven't taken anything for it...

Same for me. When I take something during a headache it doesn't change anything, and most of the time I'll even throw up in the next 30min if I take something. So I just try to sleep.

Well, for me it definitely helps, I just don't like taking pills unless a doctor tells me to.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#250
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper published by the World Health Organization http://www.who.int/health_financing/taxed_based_financing_dp... > Tax-Based Financing for Health Systems: Options and Experiences > social insurance, private insurance and general taxation Social insurance is the German model. > By contrast, Germany's policy to combine its sickness funds into a social health insurance system -- generally credited as the first effort to…

While it certainly makes sense to discuss the difference, for a US-based audience it doesn't make much sense to pedantically point out that these aren't taxes. Social insurance contributions are mandatory, based on income, and to a state entity (though independent from the government) enforced through exactly the same channels as regular taxation (as opposed to private debt). The important difference is that they are…

That's simply not the case. It is exactly for an US audience important, because the German system is vastly different: universal health care, regulated by the government, 99.9% coverage, run by a system of 100+ insurers and various health care providers.

> Social insurance contributions are mandatory

Mandatory is to be insured.

> based on income

in a range, or if one is privately insured one pays based on risk/age

Family members (wife/husband + kids) without income are insured. Plus various other regulations.

> to a state entity

Krankenkassen and Krankenversicherungen are not generally state entities.

Would you call something like the Audi BKK a state entity?

https://www.audibkk.de/english/

> enforced through exactly the same channels as regular taxation

No, health care contributions are paid directly to the Krankenkasse/Krankenversicherung where one is a member, not the tax administration (Finanzamt).

> That should be pointed out, yes, but the word "taxes" is internationally still appropriate for that.

Obviously not. In the health care domain, the Social Insurance systems and tax-based health care systems are different models.

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