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After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

nytimes.com

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Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#151

Post by phjesusthatguy3 »

jjeaff wrote: post #136
dpflan wrote: post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

I wonder if you have ever actually been about to die or, rather, you felt as if you were going to die but were in no actual danger.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#152

Post by lispm »

germanier wrote: post #149
lispm wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are insurance membership contributions in Germany. The contributions are specifically used to finance the health system, here the specific health insurer. Taxes generally are not paid for a person, but for things and values, etc.. Taxes are also not bound to a specific purpose, but are going into the general budget of the country/state/town. Taxes and insurance fees are different finance models. In Germany t…

In International discourse and comparison (e.g. those done by the OECD) most of those typically run under the label "taxes". The German distinction doesn't translate well into other systems. It should be noted that (based on the vague description from the article) her insurance probably got compensation payments from the federal government for her insurance (if it was in fact free through her husband).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

> Most universal health care systems are funded primarily by tax revenue (like in Portugal[24] Spain, Denmark, and Sweden). Some nations, such as Germany and France[25] and Japan[26] employ a multipayer system in which health care is funded by private and public contributions

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#153

Post by Peradine »

Retric wrote: post #99
eropple wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks not reaching for a pill bottle are pretty rare, IME. I think the author of this article is touching on something pretty valuable with the willingness to be uncomfortable or even to endure pain. When I broke my leg in college, they gave me morphine while I was in the hospital (which just made me annoyed and mad) and I never touched the take-home codeine. Was walking in an air boot "early", too, as I was assured…

I don't think the average american uses that many pain pills. OTC pain pills are a ~4 billion dollar industry. There are 320 million people so that's ~1$ / month in pain pill per person. And that's including both stuff that goes bad and is never used and daily Aspirin taken for cardiac health. https://www.chpa.org/OTCsCategory.aspx 5% of the population does take daily pain medication. At the same time it's common to…

Approximately 80 percent of the global opioid supply is consumed in the United States, which represents only 5 percent of the global population

"There was about 300 million pain prescriptions written in 2015,"

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/americans-consume-almost-all...

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#154

Post by walterstucco »

jjeaff wrote: post #136
dpflan wrote: post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

I think a surgeon knows what major surgery is.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#155

Post by walterstucco »

raverbashing wrote: post #34
maxxxxx wrote: post #11

"I took two ibuprofens that first day. In hindsight, I didn’t need them, but I felt like I should take something" I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex.

For migraine sufferers, not taking something as it starts to unfold will result in a very unpleasant experience that will take longer to resolve

True

That's why you take something after the doctor know how to stop the pain in the less dangerous way for your health

If you just stop the pain before knowing what it is telling you, you'll never know what the pain is telling you

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#156

Post by blfr »

dpflan wrote: post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

I've heard it somewhere...

Now imagine your pain as a white ball of healing light

That's right, your pain

The pain itself is a white ball of healing light

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#157

Post by germanier »

lispm wrote: post #152
germanier wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In International discourse and comparison (e.g. those done by the OECD) most of those typically run under the label "taxes". The German distinction doesn't translate well into other systems. It should be noted that (based on the vague description from the article) her insurance probably got compensation payments from the federal government for her insurance (if it was in fact free through her husband).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care > Most universal health care systems are funded primarily by tax revenue (like in Portugal[24] Spain, Denmark, and Sweden). Some nations, such as Germany and France[25] and Japan[26] employ a multipayer system in which health care is funded by private and public contributions

> Vorweg ist anzumerken, dass die in Deutschland vorgenommene Trennung zwischen Steuern und Sozialabgaben in vielen Staaten nicht üblich ist. Daher verstehen internationale Organisationen unter dem Begriff „Steuern“ („Taxes“) in der Regel die Summe aus Steuern und Sozialabgaben und behandeln die Sozialabgaben („Social Security Contributions“) als Teilbetrag der Steuern.

http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Monatsberic...

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#158

Post by majormajor »

There's something deeply concerning to me about claiming overall universal insights in pain management based on laparoscopic surgery.

Good for her that she was fine, but I've had the opposite experience with more serious stuff. Moaning in bed unable to sleep due to the pain being worse than anticipated is no fun, and that was in a hospital with the nurses aware but waiting on the proper overnight staff to have time to check in to decide if something stronger was justified.

Being uncomfortable is expected and fine, I don't want to be so numbed I hurt myself from overexertion, being unable to rest due to the pain is not.

But mainly, let's get rid of the stupid numbered pain scale. I don't know what the fuck a 5 vs a 10 is, but being told "you said it was at a 4, so we try to keep it under 5, so we didn't think you needed more at first" is annoying when I'm just basing my numbers off of some "I imagine getting shot in the knee could still hurt quite a bit worse" standard.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#159

Post by Terretta »

jjeaff wrote: post #138
rincebrain wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a strange bimodal distribution, among people I know - there are those who take preposterous numbers of painkillers on a semi-regular basis, and those who won't take an OTC painkiller except under duress when they're on the edge of blacking out from the pain. I do think a great many people either overprescribe or are overly dependent on painkillers, opioid and otherwise, but there's also many different kinds…

This study showed that a Tylenol ibuprofen combo was as effective as opioids (and with zero chance of addiction). If course it's likely to vary in effectiveness by patient and depend on the type of pain. I can't help but feel that pharmaceutical companies probably don't want a lot more studies like this coming out. https://www.healio.com/family-medicine/pain-management/news/...

On the contrary, since nobody in the US is willing to prescribe opioids any more, hospitals are doing Tylenol IV drips, and pharma is now charging 10x for acetaminophen.

They’re just fine with the hysteria and the studies, they still get paid.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#160

Post by wallflower »

rascul wrote: post #125
wallflower wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex. I have a friend who was in an accident and required emergency surgery. She happens to be a drug addict who is no longer involved in drugs (we do not say 'former' drug addict as there is no such thing). Even though she put in her intake form "DRUG ADDICT" in bold letters and told them, they s…

Could you elaborate on how there's no such thing as a former addict? I'm curious, as there are a couple substances I used to be addicted to but am not any longer.

Addiction is not just a chemical dependency. The context in which you use the substance matters. Your personality and past behavior matters. This friend, in particular, took partying to an extreme. Not one drink but twelve drinks and blackout situations. Not just drinks but drinking and drugs. A lot of people who do not know her history will innocently say something like "We're going to happy hour" or "Just have a drink, it is the holidays." She knows though that, for her, the likelihood of that one drink turning into passing out at 5AM after an all-night rager are dangerously high. This is why I say there is no such thing as a former addict, as you can throw everything away with just "one".
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