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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

lkml.iu.edu

431–440 of 702 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you just get sick of people pushing off garbage like it's a 3 star Michelin meal. As the primary kernel developer, the amount of crap he has to deal with gives him broad levity IMO. I've worked with engineers across many fields over my ~35 years of working. When they're ripping you a new one, you pretty much always deserve it. Putting shit on a plate is being a jerk, because you're not only wasting your tim…

So we're just to take his word for it? Other than profanity what I read had no specifics, just jerky complaining. By a guy who is arguably not an expert at the issue (of Intel Processor microcode internal vulnerabilities). A thoughtful comment would have illuminated the issue, explained why the fixes were too broad or not specific enough, and how they could be improved.

> By a guy who is arguably not an expert at the issue

Linus is the defacto expert on the Linux kernel. His familiarity with the kernel and long history on these issues gives him the credibility to say a patch or code is completely nonsensical.

This isn't Intel's first rodeo. They know what is expected and they continue to play games with their code. If they are pushing garbage then there's a very good chance they know it's garbage.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trivial, yet nobody has managed to produce a working exploit that doesn't require a running start. The poc exploits wouldn't work in the wild. They are running with interference of a real system. Also, meltdown requires the data to be snooped to be in L1D cache. So the current demo exploit has to keep pushing the data into cache to be read. Something simple like steal a password from sudo should be trivia right? I'd…

Absolutely. I will be really pissed of if I'm forced to run a -30% kernel performance on my dev laptop, or god knows how much of my 1/2 decade old T420's to fix a problem I don't have. Yes, I expect my cloud provider and bank to apply the patch, my ARM based router is fine. Thanks, but no thanks, do not want.

You have secrets, some of them worth a lot:

    - cookies (e.g., for online banking sessions)
    - keys (e.g., for pushing to git repos)
    - browser history
    - identities (oh, did you post anonymously somewhere?)
    - ...
PoC code that runs in-browser exists. It's only a matter of time before it's weaponized.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a big defender of Linus, but: >> His attacks and critique are never on the personal basis This is really not true. Linus takes it way too far from time to time. The person is always in the wrong, but Linus goes well beyond what is necessary. Again, I get it and I don't mind. But he makes it personal occasionally.

Do you have any example of him taking it too far? I don't disagree, I'm just curious.

I would say, er, this time, partially. On the patches pushed by David, apparently he confused an acronym, and the patch Linus ranted about being garbage may not be so garbage-y. At least, David pushed back on his messages with some of his reasoning, and a kind note to tone down the shouty (http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1801.2/05282.html). Linus's rants on the general Intel situation still seem to apply. :)

People get angry, it happens (a bit more with Linus than some, it's a personality flaw, but it's not like any of us are perfect). I guess the general thing is more that, for some reason, people are way too overly fascinated with Shouty Linus compared to Linus the general kernel developer. There's a lot of posts on the Linux Kernel list... but the odds of a single post from this list being shared on social media dramatically increases for every Linus swear word included.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hanlon's razor should include an exception where PR and politics are involved. Discounting malicious people as just stupid is the reason so many "stupid" people are in power.

That's probably a better fit for Heinlein's Razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor#Similar_quota...

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#435
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating. What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism. > It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excuse…

Both my sons and their father likely all qualify for an ASD label, though none of them has been officially diagnosed. My sons are vastly more socially savvy than their father, largely due to having been raised better. I know a lot about the topic of autism and related issues. I get tired of seeing social difficulties chalked up to a label of some disability or other. It takes a couple of decades to properly raise a h…

> Accusations of being autistic as an explanation for abrasive behavior are almost never sympathetic. They are almost never an attempt to understand why someone is coming across poorly and find a way to better interact with them. They boil down to a suggestion of incompetence and a dismissal of the person's position, as well as any legitimate anger or frustration they may be feeling.

Completely disagree. The OP said "blunt(/direct/honest)" is a common feature of autism and autism is common in the tech world. Just because some people may take issue with others being blunt or overly direct doesn't mean it's a negative thing, nor an insult or an attack on autism.

Acceptance of this trait may be cultural but primarily it seems to me to be a personal preference.

Every person's personality is built on a multitude of positive/negative traits, nobody is perfect and it's not that big of a deal having a few flaws. Flaws are often the the type of thing which makes people interesting. But I'm not even convinced this is even a flaw in the first place.

Some of the smartest people I know are blunt/direct and it's a personality trait that I personally seek out in my friends/partners. I find it makes for the best type of business partner and reduces significant amounts of drama and long-term conflict. But I understand it's not for everyone and lots of people misunderstand their intentions or are uncomfortable with raw honesty. But outside of the person not being rude, talking out of place, having basic social grace, etc... that's on them if they don't like it. It's not a flaw in itself, only if it's used incorrectly.

Of course not all people who are blunt/direct are autistic either. I don't think the OP made the implication either. That's common sense, we all like to make generalizations or identify patterns of behaviour, but that does not mean they believe it applies to all people or that they are implying correlation always equals causation.

This sounds to me like a misguided attempt at protecting people from any type of potential discomfort, while ignoring the context of the use of such language and the situational context. This is a primary issue with this political correctness fad. Not to mention valuing hypothetical/potential feelings over honesty, truth, and reality. Certain words, descriptions, or generalizations such as this are not inherently wrong or insulting or malicious. They may be used wrong or be insulting in certain context, but what the OP said is not one of those situations.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. It also requires the social capital necessary for the calls to be taken seriously. I don't worry about Linus being silenced by prevailing culture; I worry that there won't be another Linus after him.

This is a serious concern. If Linus were replaced by someone more pliable/less attentive Linux will have a serious problem.

That's the problem with "rockstars and "benevolent dictators", the Linuses and the Elon Musks, isn't it? Everything is great until they go away for whatever reason and nobody can fill the void. Hell, there's people still doubting Tim Cook on whether he can fill Jobs' shoes.

I wonder if something like FreeBSD is better suited for sustainability - from what I can tell, there's no "dictator" figure there, no critical single point of failure.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse still, imagine a world where there was no Linux, and Oracle/Sun happened?

Ironically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues. Linux is what allowed Intel to get its biggest foothold into the UNIX server market.

>Ironically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues.

Solaris, with the exceptions of a few bright stars like DTrace and ZFS, always seemed like a POS to me, compared to linux. Especially as a work-station. Sun went full retard with Java everywhere right before they went under and I have a feeling the Solaris Desktop experience, and by extension the UNIX desktop experience, would be something from my worst nightmares, something to make wish for Windows Vista.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> based on real data Citation? Sounds interesting.

That's hardly limited to women. It's the same reason I have no intention of ever contributing to the kernel.

I'd be absolutely terrified to submit a patch, ever.

"What the fuck is this? This came from Satan's butt-hole. Kill whoever did this - kill them immediately, here, I'll go and find this asshole who submitted this patch, and do it for you, you lazy ingrates, why do I have to do everything around here?"

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#439
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasonable expectation would be that Intel fixes one (or both) of the bugs - In newer CPU's. There should be mitigations against these attacks. That would probably seriously hurt intel by delaying their future processor launches - In Older/existing CPU's through microcode updates. Bar literally making "fixed" versions of every Intel CPU in the last 10~ years. This is the only way to resolve the issue on existing…

It's not Intel's issue, it's a design flaw per se, affecting _all_ CPUs that use predictive branch execution that has effects on the processor cache, which are pretty much all processors produced in this millenium. That said, there _might_ be a solution to this problem in a way that predictive branch execution does not need to be removed completely from future architecture, which would be a thing we don't really want…

> which are pretty much all processors produced in this millenium.

Is there a simple table of every mainstream purchasable CPU out-there and whether it was affected?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a serious concern. If Linus were replaced by someone more pliable/less attentive Linux will have a serious problem.

That's the problem with "rockstars and "benevolent dictators", the Linuses and the Elon Musks, isn't it? Everything is great until they go away for whatever reason and nobody can fill the void. Hell, there's people still doubting Tim Cook on whether he can fill Jobs' shoes. I wonder if something like FreeBSD is better suited for sustainability - from what I can tell, there's no "dictator" figure there, no critical si…

It makes me wonder if there are ways to structure an organization in a way that once it has found its purpose and voice, it becomes rigid in its trajectory.

Consider an organization that would rather cease to exist or be relevant, than to allow itself all the freedoms to pivot and mutate significantly.

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