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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

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Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#261

Post by mtanski »

mcv wrote: post #160
azernik wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's quite clear about his theory as to Intel's motives: > The whole IBRS_ALL feature to me very clearly says "Intel is not serious about this, we'll have a ugly hack that will be so expensive that we don't want to enable it by default, because that would look bad in benchmarks". > So instead they try to push the garbage down to us. And they are doing it entirely wrong, even from a technical standpoint."

That bit sounds to me like Intel is trying to pull a "Volkswagen": have it perform better in benchmarks than in real life (when hopefully secure execution will be enabled).

On another forum somebody suggested laywer / legal reasons. That if default performance takes too big of a dive the case for lawsuits is stronger. They already have a class action filed against them. A benchmark performance dive would be one angle to use in court.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#262

Post by tome »

tauntz wrote: post #224
tome wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you replied to the correct post since it didn't really seem to be about Linus's style. Anyway, this argument comes up again and again. Regardless of the style in his country and language or origin he is writing in English, in public, for an international audience. One expects a different sort of tone.

> One expects a different sort of tone. I don't think I can agree with that statement :) I'm part of the target audience and that tone is _exactly_ what I'd expect instead of polite talk that dances around calling out BS for what it is.

The merits or demerits of that tone are another issue. I'm responding to the claim that Linus uses that style because it's the style of the country he comes from. I don't think that argument holds much water.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#263

Post by pjmlp »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #172
nolok wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hence why Android phones are often trapped on old versions of Android when launched or shortly thereafter The reason why most android phones don't get upgrades (or only one) to newer android versions has absolutely nothing to do with qualcomm lack of care regarding their cpu's security.

It has been quoted by Google developers on why Nexus 5 fell off the support track so early, around the same time Nexus 4 did: it took a herculean effort to get the binary drivers to even remotely work right on Android 6 due to being unable to drag in newer kernels. This is partially why Treble is being worked on, to just completely disconnect the actual Linux-based HAL from "the OS", thus trying to negate a lot of th…

That is just an excuse from Google that many blindly accept.

First, of all there are legal obligations known as contracts. If Google was serious about Nexus 5 support from OEMs, it would have had contract in place that would assure the necessary support regardless of what OEMs would decide.

Secondly, Treble is yet another solution that will die, because Google, again, decided to leave to OEMs the task of delivering Treble updates, without any kind of legal obligation.

Additionally Android devices that get upgraded to Oreo aren't obliged to be fully Treble compliant, only the ones released with Oreo.

So, many new devices planned to be released in 2018, are based on Android 7.0.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#264

Post by yorwba »

yoz-y wrote: post #244
c12 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could be very wrong but I read it as Intel trying to cover the fact that there are huge performance penalties with the patch enabled. Therefore Intel will continue to market chip performance sans patch while pushing down the responsibility of enabling them to OS vendors.

Aren’t most independant benchmarks run on OSes that are already patched?

Not with those patches, since they haven't been merged yet. The performance decreases that have been reported so far are for Meltdown patches, those new patches are apparently meant to mitigate Spectre.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#265

Post by jimktrains2 »

bassman9000 wrote: post #191
Roritharr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company.

We should treasure it while it lasts, before PC culture silences him. And before downvoting, recall how many threads regarding Linus abusive behavior (sic) we've had.

Pc culture? What are you talking about? Linus is pc (in that he doesn't go on misogynistic, racist, or similar rants and doesn't denigrate people for their non-technical decisions) , he's just not nice to those that should know better.

While I think you've also been bitten by the "we accept everyone! (who thinks the way we do)" crowd as well, this is not the place or the way to express that frustration.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#266

Post by Spooky23 »

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #48
Roritharr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company.

> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Which is why FOSS is so important. Can you imagine a world where Linux was closed source? You’d never have any insight into security patches, or these discussions.

Worse still, imagine a world where there was no Linux, and Oracle/Sun happened?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#267

Post by ewi_ »

sundarurfriend wrote: post #179
mpweiher wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and so happy he doesn't follow the kinds of BS rules set out here: https://medium.com/@sandya.sankarram/unlearning-toxic-behavi...

People are quick to downvote calling such things BS, because it sounds just nice and well-intentioned when presented like that. The problem is that such "rules" can be and are used to harass and shame people who are focused on the code and just want to get things done, without either sugarcoating their thoughts or being intentional assholes about it. It also just plain ignores people who actually prefer getting plain…

Actually, if what you are looking for is "to the point" reviews, then you should agree with the article's advices. To name a few:

- Pointing to a common reference instead of simply stating your opinion in a review will get the improvement you want done faster

- Writing a single comment for a repeated error is faster to do for the reviewer

- Explicit communication instead of emojis and sarcastic comments will bypass the need for further explanation, which will make the whole process faster

Finally, you seem to take issue with only a few of the author's points ('some of these rules go beyond a reasonable "don't be an asshole" line'), could you explain which ones and why? I am interested to know what exactly makes the process too taxing for you.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#269

Post by joelthelion »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #126
joelthelion wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FOSS is so important FOSS is nice, but it's not a silver bullet. In this case I think Linus is largely to thank. Things will be a lot harder if he decides to retire.

A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase, or how much man-hours were spent (sunk cost fallacy). I think in a lot of "corporate" projects (not-open source) there's much less of that and the software is designed by commission, with the lead developer(s) quickly no longer having much of an influence on the code itself, being dr…

> A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase,

Well if Linus goes too far, Google and a couple other big corporate contributors could team up and fork Linux, and it would be very hard for the open project to compete. I think the fact that Linus is so good is a big part of what makes the whole thing hold together.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#270

Post by hmmmmmmmmmmm »

sundvor wrote: post #134
ealexhudson wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. All Linus needs to do is say something like "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm not merging it until I do", rather than "They do literally insane things. They do things that do not make sense". The latter is not a technical argument, and it doesn't provide accuracy or clarity about next steps. "So somebody isn't telling the truth here. Som…

Sometimes in a sea of noise it's good to have someone highly qualified shouting to make people sit up and really pay attention. Like now, because it is critically needed.

No not really. The fact is, Linux kernel developers are in an abusive relationship with Linus. If you look at a high quality Unix such as FreeBSD, there's none of this temper tantrum nonsense.
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