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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

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Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#81
post #77

Really abusive language. There are ways to communicate his objections to the patches with extremely strong language WITHOUT resorting to abusive language. I wouldn't tolerate anyone treating me like this. There are unseen consequences to a wild tongue.

Do you think Linus would get a maximally friendly reception if he said:

> You clearly mean well. Your heart is in the right place. Thank you so much for all your hard work. There's this weird thing going on where it seems like a bunch of patches experiencing opportunity for improvement are being pushed. These patches also could maybe be better explained.

> I don't understand. Can you help me understand, so we can fix our problems together? Again, thank you so much for your hard work!

And, incidentally, does the above not just drip insincerity to you? It does to me, and I know how powerful the Dale Carnegie-esqe "complement sandwich" approach is.

Linus is justifiably angry at someone screwing with code he is responsible for in ridiculous ways, without any real explanation of why a ridiculous approach was chosen. He's maybe a smidge less than fully satisfied with either point. The person in question really should know better on all points.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#82
post #46

Are state actors or others trying to take advantage of meltdown needing fixes & patches to insert their own version of fixes & patches that end up benefiting them?

As far as we know, there has never been a single attack using either of specter or meltdown issues. No code had been found, nothing. It appears to be very difficult to take advantage of, and the initial idea of a JavaScript exploit seems to not be possible. Part of the reason for all of this might be that the attacker needs to run code on the target machine, and one the attacker can do that, there are far easier ways…

Why does HN not allow people to question things like this? Any attempt to bring some non hyperbolic view to the topic is continually voted into the ground.

I think it is useful to know that these exploits just might not be as bad as they are being made out to be.

Ice talked to a number of people that don't seem to understand that there are limits on these: somebody cant just start reading data from random programs.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#83
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea... and what about every other chip maker who also have the same exploits? Can someone explain whether AMD and Qualcomm licensed this tech or if they also independently made the same mistakes? Either way, we really haven't seen much activity from them either.

There are fewer people trying to attack AMD's chips, they comprise such a small chunk of the installed CPU base out there that most attacker's won't be going after a system containing a CPU from AMD. This may change in the next year or two though, at which point the vulns that are likely in their Platform Security Processor may bite them in the ass. Qualcomm on the other hand has taken the "fuck security" approach an…

> Hence why Android phones are often trapped on old versions of Android when launched or shortly thereafter

The reason why most android phones don't get upgrades (or only one) to newer android versions has absolutely nothing to do with qualcomm lack of care regarding their cpu's security.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#84
post #74

I'm going to be honest, I need an ELI5 here. I know what the meltdown/spectre issues are, and kinda understand what retpoline is.

Big simplification: Proper way to fix an hardware bug like this, is that newer cpu gets protected by default, and they answer they are when queried. So you can ask the CPU "what's your status on bug X" and the cpu answers "i'm good, you don't need to do anything" (newer fixed chips), or "i know about it but was already built, and need microcode update/special behavior to protect myself" (current chips with microcode…

This doesn't make sense though. If Intel indeed plans to leave chips vulnerable except if you set a flag, then how are these bullshit patches? This will be the only solution Intel is going to deliver right? I get that he doesn't like it, but that doesn't explain why he feels lied to. If Intel says "we're going to not turn the patch on by default", wherein does he suspect the lie?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company.

> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Which is why FOSS is so important. Can you imagine a world where Linux was closed source? You’d never have any insight into security patches, or these discussions.

> FOSS is so important

FOSS is nice, but it's not a silver bullet. In this case I think Linus is largely to thank. Things will be a lot harder if he decides to retire.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#86
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has a major technology media outlet taken a similar position as Bloomberg and The Economist?

Are there any people who care about what the “technology media” says?

Technology buyers? Technology sellers who pay tech media?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#87
post #61

I'm going to be honest, I need an ELI5 here. I know what the meltdown/spectre issues are, and kinda understand what retpoline is.

Linus seems to have two complaints: 1) Recent patch submissions imply that Intel has no good hardware or microcode mitigation for spectre-like attacks. There is a sub-complaint that Intel has a bad (i.e. kills performance) fix, but will not enable it by default because benchmarks matter. 2) This series of patches in particular appears to be doing either something different, or more than what their descriptions imply…

(FYI you're missing your [1] reference.)

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#88
post #63

Am I the only person who finds this extremely difficult to read? The top says "David wrote" and then it looks like he's replying to a message from Linus Torvalds. So any quoted text is by Linus, right? But then....the letter is signed by Linus? So who wrote it? I know this is some ancient technology but Jesus, the user interface is horrendous.

Probably depends on how old you are. To me it was completely obvious and much, much clearer than most 'modern' user interfaces. Every person replying prefixes each line with > . Proper email clients do this automatically. This way you can tell from the number of >'s how far back on the 'stack' you have to go to know who wrote it. You start reading from the top, mentally associating an indent level (nr of >'s) with a…

I don't know, I'm 27 and a C++ programmer and found it difficult to figure out who's talking at the time. I'm just more used to more modern forums where each "block" is wrapped in quote tags with signature on top.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#89
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has a major technology media outlet taken a similar position as Bloomberg and The Economist?

Are there any people who care about what the “technology media” says?

I do. I don't know Bloomberg or The Economist that well, but translating the media brands to Dutch ones, I'd definitely care more what Tweakers.net says about something than NOS - tech news versus general news. I know there are a few people at Tweakers who truly understand technology (like, they can probably write code) whereas at NOS you'd be happy if they explain the word "ransomware" correctly.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#90
post #84
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big simplification: Proper way to fix an hardware bug like this, is that newer cpu gets protected by default, and they answer they are when queried. So you can ask the CPU "what's your status on bug X" and the cpu answers "i'm good, you don't need to do anything" (newer fixed chips), or "i know about it but was already built, and need microcode update/special behavior to protect myself" (current chips with microcode…

This doesn't make sense though. If Intel indeed plans to leave chips vulnerable except if you set a flag, then how are these bullshit patches? This will be the only solution Intel is going to deliver right? I get that he doesn't like it, but that doesn't explain why he feels lied to. If Intel says "we're going to not turn the patch on by default", wherein does he suspect the lie?

He's complaining about their "fix" being terrible, but isn't fully against using it the end since as you said, that's all there is going to be to have the chips work properly.

The reason he refuses those current patches and directly call it a lie/deception is because of what my last two paragraphs related; if you read his message (where the link points to) it's about half way: Intel tries to disguise it by doing it in a convoluted way. Basically they try to avoid making it obvious when looking at the code, because they don't want a "if (intel_chip) enable_fix_because_default_is_broken_on_intel();" and instead pushes something that looks like the kernel needs to do lots of complex stuff [aka, "it's complex, and a fix-on-chip is not enough the kernel needs protection anyway !", and that means a terrible patch with lots of garbage and filler code.

Intel's intention is clear in that they specifically pushes this in the same patchset as the "tell the chip to be secure", trying to mush the two things together to make it looks like it's all the same thing, whereas in reality it should be two patchset: one to enable the security mode, and bad for intel marketing wise. And a second one to add those "fixes" to the kernel, that would be refused because terrible and in part unecessary since retpoline already protects it. What Linus is saying is "sure I need the first change, but since you're intent on pushing them together I'm refusing them, because the second one is pure garbage, and you mix them together to hide the first".

Eg quotes from said mail to show it's indeed his problem:

> So instead they try to push the garbage down to us. And they are doing it entirely wrong, even from a technical standpoint.

and

> The patches do things like add the garbage MSR writes to the kernel entry/exit points. That's insane. That says "we're trying to protect the kernel". We already have retpoline there, with less overhead.

(what he means here is that they try in their patch to make it look like the kernel needs a special protection, while it already has it through retpoline)

and

> So somebody isn't telling the truth here. Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons. Sorry for having to point that out. If this was about flushing the BTB at actual context switches between different users, I'd believe you. But that's not at all what the patches do.

(eg "why are you pushing all this crap around to hide what's really happening/need to be executed")

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