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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#221

Post by mseebach »

Clubber wrote: post #69
mseebach wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already it. Most people middle class and up work way more than they strictly need to for simple wellbeing. It's just that our standards and expectation for wellbeing shifts, and shifts quickly.

>Most people middle class and up work way more than they strictly need to for simple wellbeing. Sort of. For the week, I would agree, for a lifetime, not so sure about that. I mean what happens when you are unable to work? That could come sooner or later, but when it does come, you will need a chunk of change to get you through the rest of your life. Also, at the other end of life, children can't work until 16, so so…

The trick is to abstain from all luxuries in life (thus, the "strictly need" qualifier). Of course, we don't really want to do without the luxuries, so we work to earn their cost -- and we also don't want to do without them in old age/during sickness, and so we even more to have savings. But a roof over your head and beans in your bowl, including savings for a few decades of this without working, isn't really hard to achieve at all.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#222

Post by nybble41 »

beat wrote: post #184
cdoxsey wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that help a poor worker in Bangladesh? In many of these countries people voluntarily choose to work in these factories. They're terrible places to work, but apparently its still better than working in the fields. A more effective strategy might be something like: https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are . They work within these countries to protect workers from the worst human rights abuses. (ie child sex trafficking…

People "voluntarily choose" to not starve or wind up homeless. That's a very narrow definition of "voluntary". Show me people doing things they would do even if they weren't getting paid to do it. That's voluntary.

> Show me people doing things they would do even if they weren't getting paid to do it. That's voluntary.

The presence of compensation does not preclude an action from being voluntary. Neither does the presence of universal biological imperatives like the need for food or shelter. These things are forced on us by nature, not other people, and are part of the basic human condition.

Providing necessary things for yourself is a voluntary action.

Interacting with others of your own free will to provide the things you need more easily than you could do on your own is also a voluntary action.

It only becomes involuntary when that interaction is forced on you, making you worse off than you would have been on your own (as always, from your own subjective point of view).

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#223

Post by mseebach »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #52
mseebach wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already it. Most people middle class and up work way more than they strictly need to for simple wellbeing. It's just that our standards and expectation for wellbeing shifts, and shifts quickly.

I'd say "are in the workplace way more" ... >"Now, the workday is ripe for another disruption. Research suggests that in an eight-hour day, the average worker is only productive for two hours and 53 minutes." https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver... // Other studies show the most productive workers take long breaks (~25% of working time).

I'd argue that this definition of "productive" is insufficient. Conveniently, the link to the study is broken (and to "vouchercloud.com", not BLS, the stated source of the study), so it's hard to check the numbers.

My point is, few people can walk up to a keyboard and program "productively" for three hours -- and then do the same thing the next day again indefinitely. Hidden in those productive hours is a lot of informal coordination, necessary for those three hours to be actually productive.

By no means is it given that 8 hours is the optimal workday, nor that the way we generally structure work is the most efficient, but luckily, our field is especially receptive to radical experiments, so someone will surely try this any day now. (/s)

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#224

Post by snambi »

cdoxsey wrote: post #139
corey_moncure wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain. Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.

How does that help a poor worker in Bangladesh? In many of these countries people voluntarily choose to work in these factories. They're terrible places to work, but apparently its still better than working in the fields. A more effective strategy might be something like: https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are . They work within these countries to protect workers from the worst human rights abuses. (ie child sex trafficking…

what makes you think working in factory is better than working in the fields?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#225

Post by marak830 »

beat wrote: post #185
marak830 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to add onto this point. Started cheffing at 17, always wanted to code, self taught enough to be qualified as a chef and get a job programming for a fairly large company by 22. It sucked. As you said, waiting for assignments, no decision making and just another cog in a very large wheel. Went back to cheffing, I've now travelled all over Australia, lived in Japan for 6 years, met a woman who became my wife an…

Makes me think of observations I've made about cooking in better restaurants. It doesn't pay well and the work requires skill/experience and long hours, and demand (at least here) is extremely high. High demand, high skill... why doesn't it pay better? The only answer is that there must be some other benefits to the field. They have to pay people better to work in an office because office work sucks a lot more.

I certainly don't make as much doing this as I would coding.

The best I've gotten so far was 2k Au a week while running three restaurants as an exec.

Hospitality in general isn't the best industry for making money, although I am planning on my own place in a few years :-)

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#226

Post by newintellectual »

Grimm665 wrote: post #179
lbotos wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been calling amazon prime a "hiding of the poor" to my friends and family. Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. (I don't have prime, I don't use prime, and I don't want this to be our future.)

> Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. Anecdotal, but I have visited a few of the Amazon warehouses in the Seattle area. I was surprised by the amount of effort Amazon went to to emphasize safety, work-life balance, healthy activities, and good work habits. There were free vending machines for PPE everywhere, and during the lunch hour each day, managers led workers in 2…

Wait, you mean having healthy, happy workers might be better for your company? How dare you bring up mere facts against The Narrative?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#227

Post by SherlockeHolmes »

ddnb wrote: post #62
SherlockeHolmes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is assuming that new industries shall not develop once complete automation (of those possible) is achieved. engineering jobs - for example - should branch out to many more folds of specializations compared to where they are now.

Won't those, once complete automation is achieved, be automated?

you are being restricted by - I am making assumptions here - a lack of creativity and a desire to be sarcastic. We may also differ in our interpretation of what "engineering" is. There are numerous jobs already in existence that are likely a thousand years away from being able to reach automation. However, should economy proceed normally after achieving full automation of what is possible within this century - my statement may become clearer.

Distance between our respective positions on this topic is enough that I have to spend considerably more effort to communicate using words a more complete explanation.

p.s. I love to edit as much as I am able to, and dislike those that are prejudiced otherwise.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#228

Post by oreo81 »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #162
patmorgan23 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unregulated capitalism is not what's causing the massive inequality we see today. It's the financial and monetary policies. I'm not saying we shouldn't have regulations but the ones we have are centralizing wealth into the biggest corporations. If you look this modern massive growth of inequality doesn't really start until the 1970's after we whet off the gold standard and theirs an uptick in inequality every time th…

Do you have examples of these 'financial and monetary policies' you're referring to? What I see is that Wal-Mart makes a ton of money and their employees have to be on food stamps and still work 80 hour weeks while the owners reap all of the profit. To me this is simply unregulated capitalism which nowdays has become thinly masked slavery.

Walmart employees don't work 80 hours a week...that's absurd, most can barely handle a 4 hour shift. All in all people get what they're worth, want to earn more money? Bring more valuable talents to the table.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#229

Post by anfilt »

goatlover wrote: post #132
anfilt wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they are more wealthier till that debt is paid off. However, the metric does not include cash flow. The westerner has a greater cash flow than the person in Africa. However, what happen if that person looses their job? Suddenly, their quality life will probably drop. They might even end homeless unable to pay rent. However, the westerner is probably better off overall.

It's all the wealth around you including the infrastructure that you can partially take advantage of that the African probably lacks.

Henceforth, why I said probably better off.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#230

Post by chillwaves »

tboyd47 wrote: post #199
time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

If you're contemplating leaving this world, that would be considered a crisis in most places. Look up crisis hotlines in your area and please get help...

I'm as confident that the person you are responding to is aware of this service as I am that it will not help them.
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