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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#111

Post by chimeracoder »

baldfat wrote: post #97
Simon_says wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that too high? Then kindly don't drive in Manhattan.

$100 to commute a week isn't to high? When the train cost $27 round trip (off peak) or $38.50 (peak) it is a pain. Also if you have business in NYC you are stuck with either losing the whole day or half a day just to get there. Now Chicago, Atlanta and LA have bad traffic it doesn't cost you a hundred bucks to commute for a week.

> $100 to commute a week isn't to high?

So move to the city and enjoy a shorter (and cheaper) commute. Of course, since you're currently living 50 miles outside the city, the increase in rent would be much more than $100, so you're still enjoying the cheaper end of the bargain.

> Now Chicago, Atlanta and LA have bad traffic it doesn't cost you a hundred bucks to commute for a week.

With parking, you could easily pay that much in other U.S. cities. In addition, they all have pretty terrible options for public transit compared to New York, so I'm not really keen on using them as a reference point.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#112

Post by rdtsc »

Driving 10 miles from Northern Virginia to DC on I-66 could cost you $40:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/12/0...

Is it wrong? I don't know, usually it is not as bad. But when it got that high and people were still jumping into the lane one has to wonder what's going on.

Granted the nearby counties are the wealthiest in the country, so maybe it shouldn't be that shocking.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#113

Post by KhanMahGretsch »

isoskeles wrote: post #76
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy Wouldn't libertarian philosophy, taken to its logical end, imply private schools and private roads, where you pay whoever owns the school/road to use it? But if we're going to have some public schools and roads, there's more of a moral principle behind the former than the latter. I would be uneasy with congestion pricing public schools because the moral principle the…

>Wouldn't libertarian philosophy, taken to its logical end, imply private schools and private roads, where you pay whoever owns the school/road to use it?

That is correct, though the government still has a major role to play in enforcing their citizens rights. If a private company were to build a poor-quality and dangerous road, this would amount to an act of violence towards the drivers, thus the government would need to ensure that standards are met. If education is defined as a right, the government would need to ensure that private schools are meeting the standard held in it's definition.

Of course this is a simplification, but in a way I view these services as already being "privatised", except one organisation is granted a monopoly: the government! They indeed have some of the same conflict-of-interest that would scare some off private corporations replacing them; we all know that local politicians can be very selective in which stretches of roads receive maintenance, especially coming up to election time.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#114

Post by chimeracoder »

jimmaswell wrote: post #14
lotsofpulp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freezing temperatures, salt, underground infrastructure, and large amounts of traffic increase costs tremendously. Additionally, sometimes the infrastructure cannot handle the demand, therefore demand has to be reduced, and the easiest (and maybe most optimal way for society) is to implement tolls.

Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?

> Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?

The answer isn't "screw the poor", because the poor aren't generally driving into Manhattan. They're taking public transit.

Driving into Manhattan is already incredibly expensive. $15 is a drop in the bucket compared to what people already have to pay.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#115

Post by cozzyd »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #88
rthomas6 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive to work in traffic, and I would much rather be on a subway. Where I live, there is no public transportation from my house to my office. If I could take a subway, I'd be able to zone out, or read a book, or go on Reddit, etc. for 40 minutes instead of being on constant low-level alert while driving.

> zone out, or read a book, or go on Reddit Kind of? It can get pretty tight to the point where holding a book up is uncomfortable or not possible due to lack of space. You only get internet at station stops and not in the tunnels, so it's a little bit tough to read Reddit. I usually get around this by pre-loading a bunch of essays I want to read. Yeah, you can put on your earbuds and zone out. But it's dark down the…

Surprised that NYC doesn't have service in tunnels. CTA has LTE everywhere nowadays. Granted, most of CTA's network is above ground and there are only ~20 miles of underground tracks...

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#116

Post by jimmaswell »

rthomas6 wrote: post #103
jimmaswell wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Manhattan "based around cars"? I don't know the specifics but I thought NYC mostly just grew from its roots from a time quite a while before cars. I imagine a city truly based around cars could be made to have much less congestion while still accommodating walkers/bicyclists. More lanes between buildings, with sidewalks replaced by pedestrian bridges so traffic flows with less obstruction, for example. Less inter…

No, Manhattan was not based around cars, and that's a good thing. It's what allows for such high population density, and so many unique neighborhoods. Allowing so many people to live comfortably and efficiently in its limited space is what give Manhattan many of its most sought-after features: The food, the diversity, the infrastructure, the walkability. We shouldn't design for cars and accommodate for pedestrians, w…

I was imagining widening the roads and replacing crosswalks with bridges while holding everything else pretty much constant. I spent a month in a city like the second picture, at a hotel for job training, and it was annoying that I couldn't safely walk right across the street to the stores over there, but if there were just some bridges it would've been fine.

Something else that I've imagined would be cool is a system of skybridges mirroring the sidewalks. Maybe even in that case pedestrian traffic could be removed from the street level, so pedestrians and vehicles would be fully separated, working out best for everyone.

Another interesting idea is a second network of roads on bridges that maybe go through buildings, which has happened a bit in a few cities. Unfortunately both of these ideas are probably too expensive in practice.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#117

Post by burkemw3 »

rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

In my experience as a Brooklynite, the time trade-offs really depend on the time of day. Outside of commuting hours, taking a car is usually faster than taking a subway for me.

There are, of course, other benefits of the subway, including lower costs and the possibility of doing something else like reading.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#118

Post by ebikelaw »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #78
rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up. It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in tr…

I can’t imagine where you came up with that. In 1980, 80% of Manhattan households did NOT own a car. There has never been a time where the statement “everybody owned a car” was remotely true in Manhattan.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#119

Post by nogridbag »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #90
weatherlight wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

....and pay a 100$ an hour for parking?

A lot of street parking on Manhattan is free, if you know where to look.

As long as you always return to your vehicle on time. Otherwise that free parking turns into a $115 fine followed by a $185 tow plus the $10 Uber ride to get to the NYPD impound lot downtown.

Source: Just got towed. I was fined 15 minutes after I was in violation and towed 5 minutes afterwards.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#120

Post by walshemj »

rayiner wrote: post #100
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. We have congestion pricing for schools. Try buying a house near one of the good elementary schools in DC or Chicago.

And gerrymandering of catchment areas id assume as happens in the UK.
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