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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#31

Post by Simon_says »

baldfat wrote: post #28
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

The only issue is when I had to run to Manhattan I jumped in my car and went either into a parking lot or just dropped something off. Still get charged for the Bridge Fees of $15!!! $15 to use the GWB and anything going to Long Island or NJ is ridiculous and Verrizano is $17 and that is the the highest cost for a bridge in the nation. GWB is a major interstate and you have to swing up to the Tapanzee or go further no…

Is that too high? Then kindly don't drive in Manhattan.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#32

Post by nwah1 »

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #24
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

Not disagreeing with you about the economic point, but will kindly disagree with you in terms of spending. Let's just say New York does not have a great history of spending on infrastructure. A recent New York Times piece, mentioned that the price of labor on infrastructure projects is 5 times more expensive then anywhere else in the world. It just blows my mind that people in the NYC area are willing to put up with…

I agree the costs are high. That is largely a result of the high cost of living. There's additional economically literate funding methods which account for that.

For instance, when infrastructure is built, it causes surrounding land values and rents to rise. It is possible to use that rising value to pay for the infrastructure, via a special assessment.

There is also an issue where the people with the worst infrastructure would be paying the most under congestion pricing, which means that it would be important to prioritize improvements to the most congested areas.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#33

Post by ynniv »

liveoneggs wrote: post #8

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended up getting turned around and going over to brooklyn (tunnel, of course: $8.50 toll), realized he was in the wrong place and turned around ($8.50 back through the tunnel). This, of course, was after driving up from Virginia via I-95, which has its own $20+ wort…

We ended the toll on 400 because it reduced the throughput of the highway, and we're all paying through our taxes anyway.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#34

Post by jimmaswell »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #18
jimmaswell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just recently learned about this. It's unbelievable. How can anyone defend a $15 toll? I'm glad I don't have any business in NYC.

It's unbelievable. How can anyone justify spending hundreds of billions of dollars on a bridge or a tunnel just for car usage when many New Yorkers don't even own a car? That's tens of thousands of dollars per resident. I'm glad I don't live in NYC.

Those tunnels are also used by buses and taxis, aren't they?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#35

Post by jimktrains2 »

jimmaswell wrote: post #23
matchbok wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The millions of people who do live in NYC thank you. The toll is working as expected.

So you'd rather have less people spend money at your establishments and visit tourist destinations (which is surely more than $15 spent per trip per vehicle). Whatever you say. Why not go full enclave and get rid of all bridges and tunnels in and out?

NYC isn't exactly hurting in terms of the number of people there or foot traffic.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#36

Post by sol_remmy »

jimmaswell wrote: post #14
lotsofpulp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freezing temperatures, salt, underground infrastructure, and large amounts of traffic increase costs tremendously. Additionally, sometimes the infrastructure cannot handle the demand, therefore demand has to be reduced, and the easiest (and maybe most optimal way for society) is to implement tolls.

Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?

$15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?

Why screw the middle class? Is paying 15$ every time you drive somewhere sustainable for you? If it is, then your not middle class - your rich

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#37

Post by IkmoIkmo »

jimmaswell wrote: post #23
matchbok wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The millions of people who do live in NYC thank you. The toll is working as expected.

So you'd rather have less people spend money at your establishments and visit tourist destinations (which is surely more than $15 spent per trip per vehicle). Whatever you say. Why not go full enclave and get rid of all bridges and tunnels in and out?

As I understand it, public transport is a viable (toll-free) alternative for (less-affluent) locals. Such that this toll primarily targets the more affluent class and tourists. Given there are limits to capacity for tourists, driving up costs increases revenue per unit of capacity and as it's limited, that's probably a good choice. Not dissimilar to raising prices if you're selling 100% of your production/inventory.

It's probably a pretty good deal for the average new yorker.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#38

Post by jonknee »

jimmaswell wrote: post #14
lotsofpulp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freezing temperatures, salt, underground infrastructure, and large amounts of traffic increase costs tremendously. Additionally, sometimes the infrastructure cannot handle the demand, therefore demand has to be reduced, and the easiest (and maybe most optimal way for society) is to implement tolls.

Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?

> They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible.

Who's to say $15 isn't a normal toll amount? As far as I know the bridge is quite busy which means it seems very defensible. They discount it for electronically billed tolls (which makes it faster for everybody) and discount it again for carpoolers (less cars, again faster for everybody). The $15 is the amount you pay if you're having the most impact.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#39

Post by rthomas6 »

baldfat wrote: post #28
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

The only issue is when I had to run to Manhattan I jumped in my car and went either into a parking lot or just dropped something off. Still get charged for the Bridge Fees of $15!!! $15 to use the GWB and anything going to Long Island or NJ is ridiculous and Verrizano is $17 and that is the the highest cost for a bridge in the nation. GWB is a major interstate and you have to swing up to the Tapanzee or go further no…

Why couldn't you take a train instead? That area is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is good enough to make that feasible.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#40

Post by sp332 »

wlesieutre wrote: post #6
yellowstuff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though this pushes road use into being more of a transaction I still don't believe that we should think about road use as a pure transaction. Infrastructure shapes how people live, work and play. Roads that cost $12 to drive will change the city differently than roads that cost $50 to drive on. Specifically, I'd be worried about driving away tourists and commercial traffic. I doubt a lot of well-off locals would…

Even if we did view normal everyday road use as a transaction, the road infrastructure is critical to other services like police, fire, and ambulance that still make sense to be funded from taxes. If you want to be able to call the police, you're relying on roads being available.

Funding it with a progressive tax makes more sense to me than charging everyone the same flat rate.
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