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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#71

Post by dr_ »

yipbub wrote: post #59
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

The report says "None of those fees should be charged, the task force said, until repairs are made to the public transit system." so it wouldn't be like they'd be "surge charging" a necessity like schools.

It also indicates a timeline, where cars would have to pay by 2020. The public transit system cannot be fixed in 2 years.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#72

Post by turc1656 »

maxerickson wrote: post #57
turc1656 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's not unlike surge pricing or any sort of increased pricing found for any product/service in the face of increased demand and constant supply. However, I find these types of situation to be different. These are supposed to be public roads, usable by anyone with a license as long as they obey the state laws governing the operation of a motor vehicle. Now NYC wants to add an additional charge to each and every…

The space a vehicle takes up is also essentially a public good. Your argument can probably be fairly recast as "everyone should have to pay equal costs in time if they want to use the road". And then never mind that a congestion charge is more predictable than sitting in congestion.

When I was down in Dallas, they have two parallel roadways - one which is the paid-for express version and one which is free. You can pay to get on the less-congested highway or choose to take the more congested, but free, highway. Maybe something like that for NYC would work? But with NYC's layout, I have no idea how that would work. Dallas has plenty of space to make that possible.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#73

Post by tlrobinson »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

Discouraging driving has other benefits such as reducing pollution, noise, space needed for parking, etc.

The good schools are going to be filled no matter what, so trying to assign them the fairest way possible makes sense.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#74

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

Most countries gurantee a right to education, but driving a car is considered a privilege - which is why congestion charges seem more palatable, to me at least, compared to a use-fee for education.

...not that it doesn't happen already. Don't most public schools charge parents for meals at school, after-school activities, and equipment if they join the varsity sports team?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#75

Post by maxerickson »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

I think it's just more acceptable for roads to be a limited resource than for quality schools to be a limited resource.

It's not a logical argument, it's values.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#76

Post by isoskeles »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy

Wouldn't libertarian philosophy, taken to its logical end, imply private schools and private roads, where you pay whoever owns the school/road to use it?

But if we're going to have some public schools and roads, there's more of a moral principle behind the former than the latter. I would be uneasy with congestion pricing public schools because the moral principle they continue to exist on (nb: not that they were founded on, as far as I know) is equality of opportunity. That goes away the instant you start allowing wealthy people to fill up the best schools that otherwise non-wealthy peoples' children could have attended. It might as well be a private school.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#78

Post by Nav_Panel »

rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up.

It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in traffic...

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#79

Post by maxsilver »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> Why is congestion pricing okay when applying the same philosophy to other matters of public good isn't?

I think the real root of the problem is that congestion pricing is never okay in matters of public good, we've just conditioned ourselves to believe that infrastructure is this special case of impossible problem to solve, so our terrible workaround to this artificial problem sometimes seems begrudgingly reasonable in context.

Which is why, if you took the exact same logic and applied it to almost anything else, the public would be outraged.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#80

Post by graeme »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

Physical roadspace is far more limited. In most other OECD countries, schools aren‘t nearly as segmented. Public school quality is across the board high.

But all countries have road congestion issues, to my knowledge. It’s an intrinsic feature of road networks. There‘s also a lot more variance than with schools: roads are sometimes empty sometimes full. School attendance is static through the year. (Which suggests an optimal road price would actually be more like a surge, and vary through the day.)

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