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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#151

Post by desireco42 »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #53
swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

I don't have the problem with people being rich, poor are the ones that are fairly easy to help, yet we are not doing it. And most likely not taxing the rich enough or the right way.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#152

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Simon_says wrote: post #115
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say "are in the workplace way more" ... >"Now, the workday is ripe for another disruption. Research suggests that in an eight-hour day, the average worker is only productive for two hours and 53 minutes." https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver... // Other studies show the most productive workers take long breaks (~25% of working time).

I feel that's more a symptom of people doing work they loathe. When there's intrinsic motivation for doing work, people are productive for the overwhelming majority of the time spent working, and breaks magically evaporate.

The trouble is when you start doing something for money it always seems to drain any intrinsic motivation you had.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#153

Post by badpun »

adrianN wrote: post #67
aaron-lebo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you stuck? You sound like you've accepted your fate. If you want to change things, just do it. If your reality is so bad that you want to die, then how is taking action to potentially change things worse? A big part of this discussion is people want meaningful work and a meaningful life, but they want other people to give it to them. Why is that expected?

Meaningful work doesn't grow on trees.

On the contrary, there's plenty of meaningful work - cleaning is one for example. It is just not very appealing.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#154

Post by tonyedgecombe »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #42
mseebach wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He, and Keynes' prediction of 15 hour work weeks, were largely right. We spend quite few hours in the week doing the work we need for basic shelter, food and security, at least to a 1845/1930 standard. You could theoretically live in a simple house in a non-congested corner of countryside and feed a small family simple food on perhaps a days average wages a week (there are some logistics around actually getting someo…

Not really - you can't choose to work 15 hour weeks at most places, even if that is all the money you need. I know if I could CHOOSE to work 20hrs/week and get paid half the salary I definitely would, but that's not an option for 99% of us. I prioritize time over luxuries, but employers still dictate the terms.

Retail loves having part time workers because it gives them more resilience.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#155

Post by NoGravitas »

cdoxsey wrote: post #139
corey_moncure wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain. Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.

How does that help a poor worker in Bangladesh? In many of these countries people voluntarily choose to work in these factories. They're terrible places to work, but apparently its still better than working in the fields. A more effective strategy might be something like: https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are . They work within these countries to protect workers from the worst human rights abuses. (ie child sex trafficking…

You should read about [Enclosure][1]. Most people, historically, given the choice between traditional subsistence farming, and industrial labor, chose subsistence farming. So governments and property owners took away the option of subsistence farming. This was a 16th-19th century process in Britain, but is an ongoing process in poorer countries now.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#158

Post by slfnflctd »

NiklasMort wrote: post #99
ndh2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends a lot on what country you live in and whether or not you have children.

If you have children you can't complain if you have to work more. It is a decision, kids cost money, everybody knows that. Same goes for location to live in, what you eat, if you want a car...my point is : you don't NEED much. Most people could live comfortable with less work, the problem is people WANT too much and that is exacerbated by this throw-away society. What most don't get is: the world owes you nothing, yo…

I agree that a huge amount of the suffering in the world, possibly most of it, can be traced back to bad decisions on the part of someone who should have known better. A lot of this definitely comes down to those 'wants'. Right now I have a household budget problem because someone wanted a new luxury item, it's terrible.

All the same, let's not forget there are huge numbers of people in terrible situations they did not bring upon themselves. These are the people worth helping, even if it means a bunch of selfish, badly behaved people get helped along with them. At some point, mitigating the consequences of people (predictably) behaving badly has to be looked at as basic damage control.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#159

Post by countessRostov »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #10
gaius wrote: post #2

In 1845, Karl Marx wrote that in a communist society workers would be freed from the monotony of a single draining job to “hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner” Starve in the morning, starve in the afternoon, starve in the evening, self-criticise instead of dinner. FTFY.

Did you just skip over the entire article to get a shallow dig in at communism?

Is that even a dig at Communism? I read it more that OP was commenting on how Marx's dream hasn't come to fruition at all...

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#160

Post by nickthemagicman »

throwanem wrote: post #107
nickthemagicman wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not extrapolating. Thats just the top 8 people...Take the sum of the rest of the the global 1% or even 10% and do your math... OH nm, the math has already been done. 280 trillion in global wealth / 6 billion people = 46k per person And the top 10% has 86% percent of it, and the inequality is just growing exponentially. I'm not advocating that wealth should be equally distributed OR that capitalism is all bad..…

It's not terribly controversial that anarchocapitalism is a bad idea. It's also an entirely different proposition from the one you previously advanced.

What idea did I 'previously advance'?
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