Beyond the Bitcoin bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#151

Post by jhwang5 » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

v64 wrote: post #139

starlust2 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't that existing technology can already do what new technology provides. There has to be some increased value from using the new technology. E-commerce took over because it's more convenient and offers a wider selection of products. The end user doesn't care what database you're using. They care about utility.

> The end user doesn't care what database you're using. They care about utility. I agree, but this isn't just about the end user. Many businesses incur costs to third parties that could be reduced or eliminated by trustless systems whose validity of data can be verified mathematically without an auditing team. The blockchain of today can't do that yet, just like the internet of 1985 didn't allow you to buy books, but…

"Trustless" systems require you to trust miners. I think miners are pretty much the last people you would want to trust.

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#152

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #122

tomaskafka wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This - all things that can by done by SomethingSpecificCoin can be equally well done on smart contract platform ala Ethereum. There is no reason (except for rewarding founders and early investors) someone who want to provide taxi rides own specialized mining equipment for maintaining blockchain of a proprietary coin. I rode a taxi few months ago, and I don't remember having to change my currency for a TaxiCoin which…

> In fact, it is illegal for him not to accept the national currency. What country are you referencing? It can't be the US. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment? Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal…

[deleted]

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#153

Post by v64 » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

jhwang5 wrote: post #149

v64 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you didn't get that right at all. Doubt and skepticism are inherent parts of creating new ideas, and at no point did I express that the people who are skeptical are wrong. Rather, I am surprised to see comments on a technical website like Hacker News that are treating the long, drawn out development of cryptocurrencies and blockchains as something that is completely different than the long, drawn out development…

Yes, except, personal computers didn't have negative side effects like raising funds illegally outside of investor production regulations (icos) or facilitating dark web trade.

> Yes, except, personal computers didn't have negative side effects

I disagree with this sentiment. In the early days, the dissemination of information like pornography and texts like the Anarchist Cookbook, which had instructions on how to create bombs and other weapons, were two examples of why the internet was a bad thing. Using a computer was considered by many to be antisocial due to the perception of people staring at screens 12 hours a day without talking to others in person. Even today, we have those arguing that the proliferation of computer technology has been detrimental to societal interactions.

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#154

Post by jhwang5 » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #148

api wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived through the 80s and early 90s. The difference is that I could do stuff with the early Internet. I could do stuff with BBSes. I could do stuff with early PCs. These things were almost immediately very useful to a lot of people. The reason I've become a bear on cryptocurrency is that I don't see the utility to justify the monstrous amounts of money pouring into it. It's almost 10 years old and today it's actual…

But gambling is a real-world use case. There is plenty of real-world illegal activities that benefit from bitcoin, and they can all deal just fine with high transaction fees, delays, volatility, etc.

According to your logic, pretty much any illegal activity will - by definition - have real world use cases, and should be permissible.

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#155

Post by lazerpants » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

jhwang5 wrote: post #149

v64 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you didn't get that right at all. Doubt and skepticism are inherent parts of creating new ideas, and at no point did I express that the people who are skeptical are wrong. Rather, I am surprised to see comments on a technical website like Hacker News that are treating the long, drawn out development of cryptocurrencies and blockchains as something that is completely different than the long, drawn out development…

Yes, except, personal computers didn't have negative side effects like raising funds illegally outside of investor production regulations (icos) or facilitating dark web trade.

Actually, neither ICOs nor dark web trade would be possible without personal computers.

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#156

Post by deadmetheny » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #128

fastball wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when it increased by 100% over the last 3 months...

> Not when it increased by 100% over the last 3 months... Actually, yes, that is a pretty good indication of a bubble.

Yes, but a 40% drop isn't necessarily that bubble popping quite yet.

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#157

Post by jhwang5 » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:36 PM UTC

vthallam wrote: post #3

This was a necessary phase. Mass adoption couldn't have been achieved without the exponential price rise of various cryptocurrency tokens. There would not have been media coverage of this proportion, had it not been for the gains. People now talk cryptocurrency, read more about the underlying technology and accept that it will positively affect the industry in the upcoming future. I hope the market stabilizes and som…

I think relational databases and airplanes were massively adopted without pumping tokens.

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#158

Post by DenisM » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:36 PM UTC

v64 wrote: post #147

DenisM wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the logic of the first part of your post boils down to this: There were people in the past skeptical of an outlandish claim who turned out to be wrong as that thing became something great, therefore people who are skeptical of another outlandish claim today are also wrong. Did I get that right?

No, you didn't get that right at all. Doubt and skepticism are inherent parts of creating new ideas, and at no point did I express that the people who are skeptical are wrong. Rather, I am surprised to see comments on a technical website like Hacker News that are treating the long, drawn out development of cryptocurrencies and blockchains as something that is completely different than the long, drawn out development…

So your point is that some technologies take a lot longer to mature than average, for example {some examples}, and the delay itself should not be held against such late-blooming technologies.

I'm onboard with that. Although your argument may benefit from better phrasing, because it actually does come across like that, which is a disservice to your advocacy effort.

Back on topic, I don't see a lot of people in this thread saying "it's been forever and nothing came of it, let's just end the whole thing." What people are saying here is that there is no foreseeable legitimate (and legal) use case for the crypto currencies, hence let's not start the frenzy just yet. We should have a proposed legitimate use case first and a frenzy second, otherwise it's indistinguishable from millions of other exciting idea. Just because this particular idea excites you doesn't mean it has potential.

So where is the potential? What is the use case?

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#159

Post by v64 » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

jhwang5 wrote: post #151

v64 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The end user doesn't care what database you're using. They care about utility. I agree, but this isn't just about the end user. Many businesses incur costs to third parties that could be reduced or eliminated by trustless systems whose validity of data can be verified mathematically without an auditing team. The blockchain of today can't do that yet, just like the internet of 1985 didn't allow you to buy books, but…

"Trustless" systems require you to trust miners. I think miners are pretty much the last people you would want to trust.

I agree that the current system involving miners is fraught with political implications. But that doesn't mean the system is broken, it just means it needs to be improved (proof of stake, for instance).

Re: Beyond the Bitcoin bubble

#160

Post by jhwang5 » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

martin1975 wrote: post #106

The answer to the fundamental ills of both Ethereum and Bitcoin is addressed in Cardano, which has been hard at work for 2+ years to create Ada and the first formally verified PoS type algorithm, Ouroboros. I wish more people would wrap their heads around the rigid approach to developing Ada that Cardano's taken so the light will come on... sort of like seasoned imperative language programmers who get bitten by the F…

Sure, we can implement the good ideas behind Cardano to see if we can improve some areas of existing financial system. But I don't think the society needs to help pump cardano tokens.