Leap: An Online Community for Women • Hacker News Board

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#141

Post by fruzz » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #114

cbcowans wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for asking. iii – My goal is to create an inclusive community. I'd say Leap is suitable for your friend. I am also learning as I go, so would love feedback!

Again! Your goal is not to create an inclusive community. Your goal is to create an exclusive community. Look, if want to create a female only website then go for it. But you have to own your actions. You can't exclude half the population then claim you care about inclusion. That is rank hypocrisy bordering on the delusional - you are doing the exact opposite of what you claim.

So here's the thing.

No space is being taken away. A new space is being created. This space is to give a voice to a population who reports, as a group, being silenced and undermined in other spaces by the dominant group.

This allows voices to be heard that weren't heard before. That's inclusion. Having those voices stay silent is exclusion.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#142

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

rev_bird wrote: post #78

fvdessen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The measurable advantage men have in the tech community What is that advantage and how is it measured ?

As I noted above, "advantage" was the wrong word, my apologies. There's tons of information out there about the disproportionate number of men working in tech, to say nothing of the salary discrepancies that cause so much drama here. At the end of the day, women say they feel that they feel isolated by an industry that is overwhelmingly male, and that being able to connect with other women and discuss their experienc…

[deleted]

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#143

Post by metaphoracle » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #134

rubicon33 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am interested in the answers to these tough questions as well. I can sympathize with the position women are in and can understand the strong desire to form an organization like Leap. To that end, I applaud and support them. However, I do wonder about comments like this: > "a community where the core culture was set by women, and the software and product decisions were also made by women" Progressives are currently…

Just wait until the real fun starts - it will soon become apparent that among a group that identifies as "women" there are those who would command the vast majority of the available resources, just like it happens among the group that identifies as "men" at which point that group would also need to be sliced and diced into subgroups with specific rules applied towards say... cis-women vs. non-cis-women or cis-women-t…

Leap and similar communities are not essentialist, they are safe spaces for those people who share the experience of existing as a woman in the tech industry. It is a false equivalency to conflate Leap with terf essentialism. Additionally, why the quotes around men and women? Is this an attempt to be subtly transphobic?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#144

Post by rev_bird » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:46 PM UTC

fvdessen wrote: post #138

rev_bird wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I noted above, "advantage" was the wrong word, my apologies. There's tons of information out there about the disproportionate number of men working in tech, to say nothing of the salary discrepancies that cause so much drama here. At the end of the day, women say they feel that they feel isolated by an industry that is overwhelmingly male, and that being able to connect with other women and discuss their experienc…

> At the end of the day, women say they feel that they feel isolated by an industry that is overwhelmingly male. I would like to offer another point of view; A lot of the males who ended up in that industry are, to be blunt, social rejects. They were not the popular kids in high school, but those guys who were playing magic in the corner. Being a male in IT is a big stigma in the outside world. Nerd and Geek are stil…

>I would like to offer another point of view

Honestly, I don't give a shit about "another point of view," and that you think it matters here is a great illustration of why women would run for the hills, whichever hills don't have you on them.

This is not about someone's experience as a "social reject," this isn't about sad boys not being cool in high school because they like comic books. This is about women wanting a place to talk to other women about an experience that they feel isolates them from their male colleagues. That men sometimes feel lonely too has nothing to do with it.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#145

Post by fruzz » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

booleandilemma wrote: post #117

fruzz wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish your experience was unique. A colleague was groped. She didn't report it. It would have likely diminished her future prospects. A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers. She just had to laugh it off. Women at a previous employment reported not being taken as seriously as men in meetings, and being passed over for promotions in favour of less qualified men. A friend repor…

A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers. I’m a geek and don’t know the first thing about dating, but doesn’t at least one of the parties involved need to receive an unsolicited request? Isn’t that how it works?

Work isn't the place to proposition people for a romantic relationship. At all times, but especially when there's a power dynamic.

When that happens, along with a gazillion other little things women are disproportionately on the receiving end of, it has the effect of dissuading women from pursuing their career in the industry.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#146

Post by dang » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

rev_bird wrote: post #144

fvdessen wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the end of the day, women say they feel that they feel isolated by an industry that is overwhelmingly male. I would like to offer another point of view; A lot of the males who ended up in that industry are, to be blunt, social rejects. They were not the popular kids in high school, but those guys who were playing magic in the corner. Being a male in IT is a big stigma in the outside world. Nerd and Geek are stil…

>I would like to offer another point of view Honestly, I don't give a shit about "another point of view," and that you think it matters here is a great illustration of why women would run for the hills, whichever hills don't have you on them. This is not about someone's experience as a "social reject," this isn't about sad boys not being cool in high school because they like comic books. This is about women wanting a…

Your comments have been crossing into incivility in this thread—not principled incivility, just garden-variety internet swipes like "I don't give a shit", "this is nonsense", and "you're pretending". All this breaks the HN guidelines, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how right you are or feel. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and get on the right side of the rules if you want to keep commenting here.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#147

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

mychael wrote: post #86

Can someone help me understand how this site is not sexist and discriminatory against men?

There is reason to believe that letting oppressed minorities connect in the absence of the majority group is a peaceful, effective path forward that makes them more able to put their baggage down, turn the other cheek and participate constructively in the main group.

If you are interested in assessing this through some idealized, absolutist lens, it is totally sexist and discriminatory against men. If you are interested in pragmatic solutions that help genuinely reduce the sexist drama in the world, this model has a track record of success.

So you need to pick one. Do you want to double down on abstract ideals? Or are you interested in what works?

Women who are interested in the latter can potentially find benefit in seeking out a sisterhood and turning a deaf ear to the accusations of "reverse sexism" that inevitably get leveled, typically by people who have no constructive alternative to offer and who aren't actually interested in being supportive and inclusive of women.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#148

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

adfm wrote: post #140

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Michael Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a public-interest law firm, made the same point -- if slightly less elegantly -- about the Santa Rosa case. People who objected to the computer message, he said, "should have called the guy who posted the message a jerk." Call an obnoxious speaker a jerk: what a useful formula, what an intelligent way to get the resentment off your chest without starting down the…

Do I find a mens club repugnant? Yes, but I do appreciate comfortable chairs. As for Groucho, I suppose the subtlety of his humor falls on deaf ears.

[deleted]

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#149

Post by DannyBee » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #93

rev_bird wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why would fighting racism with racism or sexism with sexism be a productive method of correcting imbalances? Wouldn't that just fuel and maintain the disdain between groups? Is this the "all lives matter!" response to this project? It's not a crime to point out that some groups are poorly represented in an industry. Are you saying the solution to "hey, women feel isolated in the tech industry" is to say "Well, let's…

> Are you saying the solution to "hey, women feel isolated in the tech industry" is to say "Well, let's figure out how to include men too"? No, my solution to a sense of isolation is instead to find ways for women to no longer feel isolated within their field. A great example with the other sex would be male nurses. Male nurses are definitely the minority in their field, yet they manage to not feel isolated overall.…

"If women feel isolated, we should try to find out why and correct that instead of just sticking them with other isolated women." Certainly you realize they may feel isolated because you are not sticking them with other women?

What is wrong with doing something like this until they generally feel less isolated, then moving on to something else?

IE Why is it unreasonable for this to be a step along the path?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#150

Post by ravenstine » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

cirgue wrote: post #63

What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I ask because I think this is a cool project, but there is also the inescapable fact that at some point men and women will have to work together in engineering environments, and we still have a dearth of environments that foster those interactions.

It solves the same problem that are solved by having different bathrooms for men and women. Men want a place where they can piss and fart away from women, and vise versa. I see nothing unreasonable with a group wanting privacy when it comes to discourse.

As long as no double-standards are applied to any group of people wanting own private space, I see no problem.