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Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

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Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#51

Post by wutangson1 »

borispavlovic wrote: post #46
muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

That's the argument Solzhenitsin used in his Archipelag Goulag to explain the strand between the Tchetchens and Russians in the labor camps. Vendetta among Thecthens gave them super powers when confronted with Russians knowing they would go unpunished for inflicting fear

I wonder if it is the same phenomena though? Perhaps it is closer to how the Sephardic Jews operated in the Nazi concentration camps as detailed by Primo Levi.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#52

Post by simonebrunozzi »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #31
simo7 wrote: post #28

Well maybe that's one of the first "application", but it's a well know fact that Mafia's rise was fostered by the Italian unification. Southern Italy was for the most part a feudal system controlled by a traditional aristocracy. The unification prompted by one of the Northern Italian states meant the wiping out of the existing Southern Italian aristocracy. Northern Italian bourgeoisie and aristocracy became the new r…

This is related to what you are speaking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Democracy_Work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_It... Crazy how something that happened 8 centuries ago can still have an effect.

The "unified Italy" only happened in 1860/1861, and the Northern Italian state was the "Kingdom of Sardinia", which comprised mostly Sardinia, Liguria and Piedmont. Only 1.5 centuries ago.

What you are referring to is the Norman conquest, which is different.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#53

Post by carlob »

fibo wrote: post #15
carlob wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would use northern Italy as a conterfactual. True, it was more industrialised at the moment of unification, and political power was much closer to Turin than to Palermo, but billions of economic aid were sent to the South over the past 70 years to try to reverse that imbalance with little effect. While it's true that Mafia is somewhat present in the north too, it is much less pervasive in penetration.

There are some history studies that claim south was richer than north just before unity.

Honestly curious, do you have links?

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#54

Post by cs1717p »

usrusr wrote: post #12
jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

Objectively worse, as organized crime tends to eventually infiltrate all legitimate economic activity on its turf, radically undermining long term productivity. Unorganized crime may take some of the fruits of the economy, but organized crime can infect the roots. "Self-employed" thiefs (to pick the most straight-forward form of crime for as an example) will likely change their ways after somehow landing a regular jo…

That's one way of looking at it -- another way is to look at something like the Mafia as being analogous to an early form of law and order (albeit arguably a tiny bit more openly violent, ruthless than your average developing world police force). Something still lacking today in most countries.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#55

Post by cs1717p »

erikb wrote: post #39
hutzlibu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Herschel I. Grossman (1995) and Stergios Skaperdas (2001) both consider mafia as an alternative enforcer of property rights. Using a model with two actors (a self-governing community and mafia) and potential robbers, Skaperdas (2001) shows that in the absence of an enforcer of property rights, mafia can represent a sort of second best solution" I do agree, that mafia act as a government. But there is still quite a d…

Absolutely agree. Mafia is not a democratic type of government. And even most despotic governments are probably better than the average mafia, for the people they rule. Reason being that you can't rule a big, stable country if you are too tyrannic. Other government-types will compete with you, and even foreign governments will try to take your land and people.

Democratic != good.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#56

Post by erikb »

cs1717p wrote: post #55
erikb wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. Mafia is not a democratic type of government. And even most despotic governments are probably better than the average mafia, for the people they rule. Reason being that you can't rule a big, stable country if you are too tyrannic. Other government-types will compete with you, and even foreign governments will try to take your land and people.

Democratic != good.

Also agreed. However: democratic >= mafia

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#57

Post by endisukaj »

simo7 wrote: post #28

Well maybe that's one of the first "application", but it's a well know fact that Mafia's rise was fostered by the Italian unification. Southern Italy was for the most part a feudal system controlled by a traditional aristocracy. The unification prompted by one of the Northern Italian states meant the wiping out of the existing Southern Italian aristocracy. Northern Italian bourgeoisie and aristocracy became the new r…

Mafia existed long before that though. The Camorra for example had a defined structure and was known as a phenomenon even in the Kingdom of two Sicilies.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#58

Post by muse900 »

wutangson1 wrote: post #50
muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

So, if men in an island- thus, a relatively small geographic area- had οικογένειακα, it was a smart move after committing the deed required to redeem one's hono(u)r (i.e. by murder) to flee to another small and confined geographic area? They weren't afraid of running into someone of an opposing family that had previously fled to Sicily? Is that really an optimal strategy? Asking for a friend. Thanks. Also, I believe…

My only explanation to this would be that they would choose whatever was close and easier to get to. Don't forget that travelling was way different back then.

I've heard stories of fleeing to Mani, Sicily and Egypt.

I guess each family, or person was choosing the easiest place to get to by his own means.

Now why they stayed there and didn't e.g move up to Genova, I have no idea. Maybe some people did, some others didn't.

On your second point, I feel like organised crime in the US is and I'd say in the world to an extend is made up by groups that tend to be foreign to that Country. If you take it by todays standards and leave out the Italians in Organised crime that have the means both political and economical to do what they do, you have other groups like the Albenians that tend to influence things using pure muscle even nowadays. Here in Europe the Albenian mafia seems to have a very powerful crew, most of its power doesn't come by political factors nor economical, but by manpower and muscle (e.g members of the albenian mafia won't care if they will be jailed, they are just going to act). Same applies to some other groups e.g form Afghanistan that run drugs etc. My opinion on that is that they tend to be tougher due to having participated in wars. Imagine an Afghan boy that lived through his whole family teared apart and seen death in a war, smuggling his way in London and instead of Europe helping him get on his feet, there is a group of his own people that offer him a few bucks in order to go do something illegal. Btw this has nothing to do with Afghans, its just an example, I have nothing against them.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#59

Post by muse900 »

ethbro wrote: post #41
muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

Social scientists seem to dislike it (possibly because it's a singular answer and thus cuts off future PhD papers), but Frontier Thesis and similar frameworks of people-as-reflection-of-environment seem one of the more solid results from those fields. As you noted, how can the entire culture and environment around someone not shape their person and way they go about living? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Th…

I can reflect to that. As a person that lived over 10 years abroad, coming back to Greece and Crete has been difficult. I can see myself and some foreigners that resided here after their pension came in, doing things that we wouldn't do e.g in the UK. (I can see changing in the way I drive, interact etc and that has been paved by the surroundings, given the fact that I got my licence in the UK and have been driving for 10 years there, without any prior driving in Greece. Now that I am back I can see how I've changed the way I drive and its mainly cause of the other drivers, you have to adapt. Driving is just an example to show that even people that ain't willing to change their mentality based on their surroundings, do change in order to accomodate.)

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#60

Post by ethbro »

muse900 wrote: post #59
ethbro wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social scientists seem to dislike it (possibly because it's a singular answer and thus cuts off future PhD papers), but Frontier Thesis and similar frameworks of people-as-reflection-of-environment seem one of the more solid results from those fields. As you noted, how can the entire culture and environment around someone not shape their person and way they go about living? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Th…

I can reflect to that. As a person that lived over 10 years abroad, coming back to Greece and Crete has been difficult. I can see myself and some foreigners that resided here after their pension came in, doing things that we wouldn't do e.g in the UK. (I can see changing in the way I drive, interact etc and that has been paved by the surroundings, given the fact that I got my licence in the UK and have been driving f…

Related question, as 10 years seems a good time: do you think it changed you as a person?

I.e. If you imagined yourself never having moved away, do you think you'd react / think differently now than you do? (in a broader sense than driving)

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