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Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

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Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#11

Post by noisymemories »

jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

I've basically lived in Sicily my entire life and I can't think of a single business (company or family-owned) earning more than 250.000€ per year that didn't have to face some members of the organized crime in some way, from having some supplier forced to them to paying "protection money" or having to hire someone as "internal observer". It's not even considered something unusual, it's basically part of doing business here.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#12

Post by usrusr »

jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

Objectively worse, as organized crime tends to eventually infiltrate all legitimate economic activity on its turf, radically undermining long term productivity. Unorganized crime may take some of the fruits of the economy, but organized crime can infect the roots.

"Self-employed" thiefs (to pick the most straight-forward form of crime for as an example) will likely change their ways after somehow landing a regular job, people who stole for an organization might continue to report to their old bosses, willing or not.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#13

Post by bertil »

tesseract wrote: post #7

I was kind of expecting something to do with the classic economics paper "The Market for Lemons", but in this case it seems to be actual literal lemons, for what it's worth!

During my PhD on Institutional economics, the confusion was common -- even more so when we had a conference in Corsica. With this article, I’m assuming it’s going to become a joke and a shorthand.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#15

Post by fibo »

carlob wrote: post #9
jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

I would use northern Italy as a conterfactual. True, it was more industrialised at the moment of unification, and political power was much closer to Turin than to Palermo, but billions of economic aid were sent to the South over the past 70 years to try to reverse that imbalance with little effect. While it's true that Mafia is somewhat present in the north too, it is much less pervasive in penetration.

There are some history studies that claim south was richer than north just before unity.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#16

Post by erikb »

jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

Why are the best discussion points these days always downvoted? One doesn't have to agree with someone, but one should appreciate reading something one hasn't thought to be correct oneself.

Also some people really, and reasonably, argue that government is nothing else but a kind of Mafia that simply one the competition for being called "government". You also know the discussions of "freedom fighter" versus "terrorist" declaration, right?

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#17

Post by antirez »

eadmund wrote: post #5

> According to the detailed description of lemon production in Harold G. Powell (1908), the production of lemons in nineteenth century Sicily started with the sowing of bitter orange seeds in spring in small seed beds under the bearing lemon trees. After one year from the seeding, the small trees were transplanted in small clumps at a distance of about 60 cm from each other. When the plant reached a height of almost…

Something odd going on indeed... Either the bitter oranges were later grafted with lemon plants, or the reason to plant near the lemon tree was in order to produce, by hybridation, other seeds that had mixed attributes, some of which would be very similar to lemons. The former makes more sense however.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#18

Post by antirez »

jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

In the town where I live here near Catania, in order to open and run a shop in the main street, you have yet to pay money to ugly people in 2018... Just as a data point.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#19

Post by bertil »

xr4ti wrote: post #4

I really don't like the authors shoehorning a linear model into this work. I perceive it as an attempt to give the article an undeserved veneer of statistical/mathematical rigor.[1] I think their hypothesis would be much better supported by typical social science approaches, such as citation and quotation of primary sources and comparative study. For example, how does the Sicilian Mafia compare with the Camorra (Napl…

It’s less a way to come off as “sciencey” and more a way to get your ideas accepted at this point. The people I know in the list of thanks would wholeheartedly agree with your the regression is forced but it gets neo-classic economists (when I was studying the vast majority and presumably still holding the reins of key publications) to not dismiss you as “psychologists”.

I’m not sure if the right approach is to use basic maths to illustrate the idea makes sense but doesn’t need that formalism to make it acceptable or to refuse the charade. I genuinely think the smarter people I know are also uncertain about it.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#20

Post by stareatgoats »

erikb wrote: post #16
jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

Why are the best discussion points these days always downvoted? One doesn't have to agree with someone, but one should appreciate reading something one hasn't thought to be correct oneself. Also some people really, and reasonably, argue that government is nothing else but a kind of Mafia that simply one the competition for being called "government". You also know the discussions of "freedom fighter" versus "terrorist…

Since we are venturing into anecdotal territory anyway, let me report that I have yet to meet anyone who can reasonably show that government is nothing else but another form of mafia. "Freedom fighter" vs "terrorist" is however another discussion.
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