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Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

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Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#41

Post by ethbro »

muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

Social scientists seem to dislike it (possibly because it's a singular answer and thus cuts off future PhD papers), but Frontier Thesis and similar frameworks of people-as-reflection-of-environment seem one of the more solid results from those fields.

As you noted, how can the entire culture and environment around someone not shape their person and way they go about living?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#44

Post by kragen »

xr4ti wrote: post #4

I really don't like the authors shoehorning a linear model into this work. I perceive it as an attempt to give the article an undeserved veneer of statistical/mathematical rigor.[1] I think their hypothesis would be much better supported by typical social science approaches, such as citation and quotation of primary sources and comparative study. For example, how does the Sicilian Mafia compare with the Camorra (Napl…

I haven't read the paper, so although this response applies to your criticism, it may not apply to the paper in question.

A linear model has only two parameters, which cuts down a lot on the overfitting problem, and since it's the default thing to try, you can be reasonably sure that it isn't the product of a "garden of forking paths". More sophisticated models, such as exponential, logistic, or quadratic — which may in fact be more appropriate on theoretical grounds — can easily be the product of researchers choosing among a large number of possible models based on what the data looks like.

I do not think that your suggested approach of removing science from social sciences, reducing them to a sort of literary criticism or scholasticism, would be an improvement.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#45

Post by HarryHirsch »

arethuza wrote: post #36
stareatgoats wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we are venturing into anecdotal territory anyway, let me report that I have yet to meet anyone who can reasonably show that government is nothing else but another form of mafia. "Freedom fighter" vs "terrorist" is however another discussion.

There are people on HN who earnestly believe that "taxation is theft" - note that I am not one of them.

I'd actually be interested to hear how the "taxation is theft" people consider protection money. The mafia is a voluntary association, one can choose to pay protection money or not. From the anarcho-libertarian standpoint there should not be objections.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#46

Post by borispavlovic »

muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

That's the argument Solzhenitsin used in his Archipelag Goulag to explain the strand between the Tchetchens and Russians in the labor camps. Vendetta among Thecthens gave them super powers when confronted with Russians knowing they would go unpunished for inflicting fear

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#47

Post by arethuza »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #45
arethuza wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on HN who earnestly believe that "taxation is theft" - note that I am not one of them.

I'd actually be interested to hear how the "taxation is theft" people consider protection money. The mafia is a voluntary association, one can choose to pay protection money or not. From the anarcho-libertarian standpoint there should not be objections.

Well, I guess that if you don't pay up to the mafia then Bad Things(TM) happen and if you don't pay your taxes then Bad Things(TM) happen - except that by definition the latter are "legal".

Note that I don't believe this myself - I'm on the "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization" side of the argument but I can see that those on the other side have a stateable case. My main objection is that I've never seen any plausible description of an advanced civil society that doesn't rely on compulsion to pay for things.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#48

Post by MereInterest »

ethbro wrote: post #41
muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

Social scientists seem to dislike it (possibly because it's a singular answer and thus cuts off future PhD papers), but Frontier Thesis and similar frameworks of people-as-reflection-of-environment seem one of the more solid results from those fields. As you noted, how can the entire culture and environment around someone not shape their person and way they go about living? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Th…

Non-mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#49

Post by HarryHirsch »

arethuza wrote: post #47
HarryHirsch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually be interested to hear how the "taxation is theft" people consider protection money. The mafia is a voluntary association, one can choose to pay protection money or not. From the anarcho-libertarian standpoint there should not be objections.

Well, I guess that if you don't pay up to the mafia then Bad Things(TM) happen and if you don't pay your taxes then Bad Things(TM) happen - except that by definition the latter are "legal". Note that I don't believe this myself - I'm on the "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization" side of the argument but I can see that those on the other side have a stateable case. My main objection is that I've never seen any…

An anarcho-capitalist would probably say that one could pay a competing crew or start one oneself, as the landowners in this article did. At any rate, access to power is limited and requires deep pockets or reckless disregard for life. Not a society I'd like to live in.

Eric Hobsbawm wrote Bandits, a nice little volume on organized crime. It's written from a different political angle.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#50

Post by wutangson1 »

muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

So, if men in an island- thus, a relatively small geographic area- had οικογένειακα, it was a smart move after committing the deed required to redeem one's hono(u)r (i.e. by murder) to flee to another small and confined geographic area? They weren't afraid of running into someone of an opposing family that had previously fled to Sicily? Is that really an optimal strategy? Asking for a friend. Thanks.

Also, I believe your inference is flawed: Just because the Kritikaaachi to this day are capable with knives and guns, it is quite the mental leap to say they would then be capable of imposing a flourishing organized crime syndicate in a foreign country. Organized crime of people whose last names happen to end in a vowel in NYC, Chicago, and to a lesser extent the West Coast was due to a much more involved history and circumstances than 'men of honor' looking for a predatory opportunity on "other racial groups".

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