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Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#251

Post by major505 »

Lunar_Lamp wrote: post #123
MollyR wrote: post #64

So a test drill went wrong. It makes sense to have drills right now, India (tests with war against China and Pakistan), China (Telling their soldiers to be prepared to die for China), Russia(tests against Nato), and North Korea (getting ready for war with the US) are all having military tests for basically what will quickly become another world war. We are really at a big crossroads as a large amount of people are re…

I'd argue it makes sense to have test drills simply because the system exists: much like backups need testing, so do emergency systems. I'm not sure that the current state of the world should influence whether or not the systems are tested.

tests and training shold be done ever as possible. But in times like now, that war seens more iminent than ever it would make sense intensifing this tests.

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#252

Post by roywiggins »

TillE wrote: post #169
runesoerensen wrote: post #65

So it took 38 minutes to send out a new message informing this was a false alert. How is that possible if this was simply a human error during a "shift change"? You'd think the people who "pressed the wrong button" would be able to press the same button again?

The long delay is what lightly tickles my suspicion that maybe this wasn't a mistake. It's a little too much of a coincidence that this particular alert happens in Hawaii at a time of escalating tensions with North Korea. I mean it's probably just a simple mistake, but it's also the kind of thing you would do if you wanted to stoke fears about a nuclear strike.

This system is run by the state of Hawaii. They're not exactly pro-confrontation (Tulsi Gabbard aside, but she's not in the state government).

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#253

Post by someonewhocar3s »

packetslave wrote: post #148
blantonl wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people are calling for the person who did this to be instantly fired, but I've always been of the opinion that the guy that pushed that button would be an outstanding hire - because he'll never, ever do something like that again and he's learned an important lesson.

BINGO. If someone makes a mistake like this, unless it was deliberate or negligent (e.g. he/she didn't follow established procedures), you don't fire them! You fix the technical or procedural failures that allowed them to make the mistake in the first place. Heck, you should probably THANK them for making the system better by uncovering a bug! When I was still mostly a Noogler, I took a large portion of Google comple…

You thank them for preventing the system from going down. Not for taking it down.

But yes, if you performed well and the mistake was not to blame on you, that's not your fault.

Still, an easy-mistake (user error caused by software (UX) defect) is a tad harder to place. Of course procedure shouldn't allow easy-errors, but that doesn't quite excuse making one.

Also, as a company Google failed for a good 6 minutes. Since the one executing the flawed procedure was the one best positioned to notice, they carry a tad more responsibility than the rest of the org. But really, mostly the executives look bad after such an event, as they have the supreme responsibility.

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#254

Post by f- »

eesmith wrote: post #182
f- wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is actually reasonably well-established - check out this: http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/58cc34b9112f7043268... Not common knowledge, though, in part because nuclear hazards have been painted in an exaggerated light by Hollywood (basically, no point in trying to survive, because everybody is going to die and what's going to be left is a 1,000-year lethal nuclear wasteland), and in part because we stopp…

I live in a 5 story apartment with two basement floors, exactly as shown in the image. The bottom floor actually has a bomb shelter, in the area rated "200". I've often wondered, what does "protection" mean if the building has collapsed around us, so we're now 20 feet below ground, with a pile of rubble on top, and no way to get out? I don't think you should direct your ire towards Hollywood, at least not in any sign…

I'm not trying to establish the origin of this narrative; but most people on HN were almost certainly exposed it through pop cultural portrayals of the nuclear apocalypse.

In some cases, these were inaccurate simply because it resulted in a better movie or a novel; but in many other cases, they were probably informed by anti-war or anti-proliferation sentiments. I don't think this deserves any special ire, TBH; it's just our reality. I loved Dr. Strangelove, but it sure affected public perception in a particular way.

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#255

Post by ghaff »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #245
ghaff wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then there's the person I know in Hawaii who posted on Facebook that people were getting alerts and went on with her spin class :-) I don't dispute it was a serious error. On the other hand, I'm not sure the consequences of the mistake should factor too much into whether they need to sacrifice someone because of optics. It does of course but that doesn't mean it should.

The consequences of the error matter to the extent that the consequences of the error are predictably extreme. I'll give an example. I work in an office building with many floors that have exact same layout. One day I was on a floor that wasn't mine, and went to where my desk should be, and tried to sit down. I was shocked, for a moment, to discover my coworkers had all been replaced by strangers. In this case, I mad…

I did specifically say "because of optics." Certainly, I don't think there shouldn't be different expectations for acceptable errors under different circumstances.

Of course, the circumstances affect what the reasonable standard of care is. Oopsies by ship captains, surgeons, and even drivers are held to a different standard than me making a typo on some random thing I'm writing or a simple program.

In your example, running a red light is commonly taken as one of those things you just don't screw up on (and that can't be eliminated through automation at this time).

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#256

Post by exabrial »

Hopefully, THAAD and Aegis work in real life as they have practice. I guess the other comfort is that North Korea is likely a one-trick pony with a nuclear device (if they _have_ managed to miniaturize it). What is scarier is the anthrax antibodies found in the North Korean defector :/

I'm hoping the withdrawal of exercises of the USA and peace talks actually get us somewhere, but we've been to the table 100 times, I don't see much changing.

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#257

Post by anigbrowl »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #196
anigbrowl wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is irrational. If you know a false alarm has occurred then you are endangering people by allowing them to believe the existence of an active threat. I feel like I'm stuck in a car with someone driving off a cliff because the GPS said so even though the edge of the cliff is perfectly visible though the windscreen.

You’re bickering over a thirteen minute delay between a mistake and a correction.

A mistake that could easily have caused mass public panic and which there was no contingency in place for. That's not OK.

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#258

Post by anigbrowl »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #175
anigbrowl wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep trotting out this excuse, but the responsibility is on the people conducting the drill to plan for that possibility and you're letting them off the hook.

> the responsibility is on the people conducting the drill Was this a drill? I understood it to be an unplanned mistake. In either case, I agree. This was a fuck-up. I am simply saying the cause for the delay, once the mistake was made, is understandable. > You keep trotting out this excuse This is a shitty thing to say.

What's shitty about it? You posted the same thing a bunch of times and seem indifferent to the downside risk.

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#259

Post by f- »

bamboozled wrote: post #222
f- wrote: post #125

So I posted something along these lines in another, now-duped thread... but I know that many folks were caught completely off guard and started wondering what they would have done in case of a real threat. Many just cracked Twitter jokes about dying in a blaze of glory. For folks who want to understand the actual dangers and survivability of an ICBM strike, I strongly suggest a book from the 1960s written by one of t…

> The main reason why our understanding of the nuclear risk is so lopsided is because for decades, many nuclear disarmament activists (including many prominent screenwriters, celebrities, and pundits) had a vested interested in portraying the already-awful outcomes of a potential nuclear war as far less survivable and far more hopeless than in reality; Why did you need to add this? It was a great post otherwise.

Because it's almost certainly true? I'm not trying to invent some sinister conspiracy, but most people on HN and otherwise acquired an exaggerated perception of the effects of nuclear war after being exposed to pop-cultural portrayals of it - chiefly in the movies.

Some of these portrayals were exaggerated simply because it resulted in a better story, but some were almost certainly colored by anti-war and anti-proliferation sentiments predominant among the cultural elites of that time. This wasn't coordinated or meant to advance some sinister agenda, but for better or worse, it skewed our understanding of what we can do in the unlikely case that any ICBMs actually fly.

An argument can be made that another factor was the government's desire to discourage the Soviets from ever trying to attack us, but I'm unconvinced - their generals, politicians, and nuclear scientists sure had a more realistic understanding of what would happen. Besides, the anti-nuclear and anti-war sentiments hurt the government in many other ways (nuclear power generation, nuclear weapons testing, Vietnam...).

Now, I'm not particularly angry at that, and I sure loved Dr. Strangelove.

Re: Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, Officials Say

#260

Post by FLUX-YOU »

smitherfield wrote: post #118
makecheck wrote: post #85

An interesting Reddit comment described a chaotic traffic situation for 20 minutes (people running lights, wrong-side-of-the-road driving, extreme speed, etc.). Human nature in these moments is very “Tragedy of the Commons” apparently.

Link?

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/7q67a1/emergency_aler...
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