As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting • Hacker News Board

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#271

Post by AcerbicZero » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:55 PM UTC

Helmet wrote: post #234

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the Arts sure doesn't bring in any great and amazing new works, nor does it really make money. So yeah, trash it and most "liberal arts". They're not STEM, and they're a sinkhole for money.... (Karl Marx warned of this, as capitalism only sees value in what produces more value. Artistic and liberal arts value is harder to calculate, thus pointless)

Liberal arts education is essential if our goal is to have a well-rounded, educated, ethical, and cultured citizenry. But, of course, this would mean that the liberal arts would have to actually go back to teaching the Western canon, and not simply using their positions as educators to repudiate Western and European art and culture at any turn, to radicalize students and spew their ideological fantasies, to engage in…

I went to college in between deployments, (~6 years ago) with the belief that college existed primarily to teach people how to learn for themselves. After a year and half I was almost happy to be deployed again, although at the time there were a number of classes I took which I would consider quality educational experiences.

I looked at the same college a few months after that deployment, and realized I didn't want to subsidize dogmatic obedience. Since then it appears to have gone even further downhill.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#272

Post by dsfyu404ed » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #214

rdtsc wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't affo…

> Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't afford to have 10 foreign languages or gyms or sports clubs. Using international students to keep those going seems a bit of a round-about way. Since many of those are state schools, maybe seeing why the states have cut funding to the schools is more useful. Tell m…

>Tell me why out of state students will pay significantly higher tuition when they can get a cheaper education in their State College?

Because an out of state university with a "nothing special" program in a field will give an out of state student who is moderately strong in that field a better price via favorable financial aid (grants, better loans, etc) than an in-state university that has a strong program in that field.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#273

Post by pm90 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #265

pm90 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because states are different? Wouldn't you say OK, NY, CA are different states with different universities, budgets, students, cultures etc. Why is it surprising that a student from Mississippi might want to go to UC Berkeley? There's only a few well known schools that attract students from all over the country. Note that we're not talking about the top 5 or even top 50. The typical example is Wright State Universi…

> Admissions officers and the International Students department is colluding to increase number of international students to increase the budget of the latter? Oh please. Gimme a break. Did I say that? I thought I was agreeing with you there that universities might prefer American students in general because they _don't_ have to incur the additional admin cost. But you turned it around into universities want to get i…

> Ok there aren't enough students, and universities might have to scale back.

Why? Give me a reason why having more smart people studying at your universities, contributing to society and research is a bad idea.

> Right but the article is talking about undergraduate international students and OP was talking about research setback in US in general. Yeah we can talk about general interest or kernels of interest and how some undergraduate students are involved, but that's moving the goal post. If we discuss graduate research, grants, state funds, then that's a different discussion.

Its not moving the goal posts as much as including more relevant points in a discussion which is certainly permissible. You don't just dismiss it simply because its "another discussion". I believe I made some excellent points about how undergraduate research has an important effect on graduate research. And cutting the former significantly affects the latter.

> Still don't see how undergraduate international students coming most likely from the wealthiest families paying full tuition to go to Kentucky State or Oklahoma State necessarily equates to a major setback in our society. There is nothing about them that's necessarily more hard working or being the smartest.

Its the admission process that selects the brightest. If you don't agree that American Universities are good at selecting the best, then you're probably right. My experience has been otherwise.

> Ok but aren't you using the same hand-wavy anecdotal arguments? What's wrong with sharing personal experience. Thanks for sharing yours, I shared mine. You don't think that's representative that's fine. I went to college around 2000s so things might have changed since then. Also there are enough schools that everyone is going to experience something different.

That's true, and I agree with your statement.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#274

Post by dsfyu404ed » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

wenc wrote: post #239

rdtsc wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tell me why out of state students will pay significantly higher tuition when they can get a cheaper education in their State College? Because states are different? Wouldn't you say OK, NY, CA are different states with different universities, budgets, students, cultures etc. Why is it surprising that a student from Mississippi might want to go to UC Berkeley? > And are you saying that the State University wouldn't p…

> Besides passing TOEFL and showing up with a full tuition check what are the merit requirements is needed. You'd probably say high school grades, but I remember just handing them a hand written note from my high school principal which I translated myself and he signed. They didn't need SAT or ACT scores even. Maybe they do now, I didn't check. If this is your experience, it sounds like you are baselining your opinio…

It's not about whether the university is reputable, it's about whether the college or school within that university is reputable.

A backwater program at a good university is going to be worse than a flagship program at a backwater university

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#275

Post by pm90 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #266

wenc wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides passing TOEFL and showing up with a full tuition check what are the merit requirements is needed. You'd probably say high school grades, but I remember just handing them a hand written note from my high school principal which I translated myself and he signed. They didn't need SAT or ACT scores even. Maybe they do now, I didn't check. If this is your experience, it sounds like you are baselining your opinio…

> you are baselining your opinions on less reputable U.S. universities (and there are quite a few of them around. The U.S. has over 3000 colleges.) It was an average state college. Not sure the "less reputable" sounds right but I guess you can put it that way. And that's mostly what the article at hand is talking about anyway. > you absolutely cannot be admitted without the right grades. Is the Kentucky State going t…

> Is the Kentucky State going to call a school in Bangladesh to verify the transcript? Wealthy people who can afford to send kids to school in US with full tuition can probably find a way to "buy" a good transcript from a local school. Maybe you meant that SAT is a requirement, then yes, it thing might have changed and it is more challenging.

They often do. And admission committees learn from experience: if they admit students from a school and they don't perform well, they recruit less from that school the next year. Conversely, if they have students performing well, they will continue to admit more. There is a chain of trust.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#276

Post by TheCoelacanth » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

IronKettle wrote: post #229

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems not to be the case everywhere - they might make money but not profits anyway. It seems uncertain that they actually use the money to fund education. Not to mention the fact that they basically exploit the athletes, who aren't always even given a quality education in return. Some schools make every student help subsidize the sports programs. [1] http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Ar..…

> That seems not to be the case everywhere - they might make money but not profits anyway. While it's mostly true that athletic programs as a whole are not profitable, it's also true that a majority of football and men's basketball programs are profitable[1]: > > Between 50 and 60 percent of football and men’s basketball programs have reported net generated revenues (surpluses) for each of the nine years reported, wh…

> a majority of football and men's basketball programs are profitable

A majority of Division I programs. Only 252 out of 674 football programs and 351 out of 1099 men's basketball programs are Division I.

Division II[1] football and men's basketball programs are universally money losers. Every single one lost money. The Division III report[2] doesn't include as much detail, but I doubt that any of them are profitable either.

[1] http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015%20Division%20II...

[2] http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015%20Division%20II...

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#277

Post by mac01021 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

nn3 wrote: post #147

So they're cutting the french tuba and Italian professors, but keeping all the far more expensive deans? Seems backwards.

Are you saying they don't need to have a dean in order for the school to function?

That might be true but, assuming it's not true, the best they could do to reduce the cost of deans would be to reduce the dean's salary by half. And laying off 2 or 3 faculty from departments that are not in high demand will lead to a much higher cost savings than half of a dean's salary. Removing a whole out-of-demand department even moreso.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#278

Post by wenc » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #266

wenc wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides passing TOEFL and showing up with a full tuition check what are the merit requirements is needed. You'd probably say high school grades, but I remember just handing them a hand written note from my high school principal which I translated myself and he signed. They didn't need SAT or ACT scores even. Maybe they do now, I didn't check. If this is your experience, it sounds like you are baselining your opinio…

> you are baselining your opinions on less reputable U.S. universities (and there are quite a few of them around. The U.S. has over 3000 colleges.) It was an average state college. Not sure the "less reputable" sounds right but I guess you can put it that way. And that's mostly what the article at hand is talking about anyway. > you absolutely cannot be admitted without the right grades. Is the Kentucky State going t…

> It was an average state college.

Fair enough, the article does mention some very mediocre colleges. I was thinking of decent colleges like Ohio State or Iowa State.

> Is the Kentucky State going to call a school in Bangladesh to verify the transcript? Wealthy people who can afford to send kids to school in US with full tuition can probably find a way to "buy" a good transcript from a local school. Maybe you meant that SAT is a requirement, then yes, it thing might have changed and it is more challenging.

Most decent colleges admit international students based on some standardized test like the SATs, IB, A-Levels or equivalent. High school transcripts are rarely acceptable due to variability in standards.

But you are right about Kentucky State. Its website states that it accepts "Official SAT/ACT OR TOEFL scores" from international students with their high school transcripts. This is utter garbage.

http://kysu.edu/administration-governance/student-engagement...

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#279

Post by IronKettle » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #276

IronKettle wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That seems not to be the case everywhere - they might make money but not profits anyway. While it's mostly true that athletic programs as a whole are not profitable, it's also true that a majority of football and men's basketball programs are profitable[1]: > > Between 50 and 60 percent of football and men’s basketball programs have reported net generated revenues (surpluses) for each of the nine years reported, wh…

> a majority of football and men's basketball programs are profitable A majority of Division I programs. Only 252 out of 674 football programs and 351 out of 1099 men's basketball programs are Division I. Division II[1] football and men's basketball programs are universally money losers. Every single one lost money. The Division III report[2] doesn't include as much detail, but I doubt that any of them are profitable…

Oh sure, fair point. When I think of the college sports monolith I'm typically thinking of D1 exclusively.

I don't think many sports fans would care or even notice if you got rid of D2/3 programs. It's an interesting point when people like Ben Wallace or Chris Ivory come along, but it's mostly a non-factor.

I'm not even sure the NCAA would care, honestly, other than it being a talking point for them to claim athletes are "students first". I'm guessing it's mostly the athletes themselves who would care.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#280

Post by klipt » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

tgarma1234 wrote: post #247

melling wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all negative for the US but our loss is the world’s gain. China’s economy will pass the US’s in the 2030’s, for example. India will rise to #3. We should expect more R&D from the rest of the world. China may lead the world in AI and space exploration. India in drug research. Billions of people will come out of poverty. American students may flock to India to get a better education at a fraction of the cost.

Having graduated from high school in 1989 I can assure you that people have been saying this since as long as I have been a teenager. It used to be that people were obsessed with how Japan was going to suddenly dominate the American economy with their extraordinary technological prowess. It seems like what people really want is to encourage American kids to study science and math and they are using the boogey man sto…

America has had an exceptional century thanks to exceptional circumstances: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-old-days

But no country is dominant forever.