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NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

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Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#421

Post by wfo »

pc86 wrote: post #309
forapurpose wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/comparing-government... . Who is the Fraser Institute? Looking at their website, they seem to turn out libertarian and conservative arguments. For example, playing down income inequality, complaining about difficult investing in oil and gas, "Top 20 per cent of families pay 56 per cent of all taxes in Canada", etc. Wanting to reduce public sector pay would fit with that.

> they seem to turn out libertarian and conservative arguments Better ignore everything they say, then! > Top 20 per cent of families pay 56 per cent of all taxes in Canada If that's wrong, then why not cite why? If it's correct, I suspect there's a good reason for it (e.g. progressive tax structures work and are objectively a good thing for society).

It is not wrong, but it is irrelevant except as propaganda: it frames the cost of government services as being borne by the wealthy and suggests the wealthy are being charitable already or that they should have some extra say over where their money goes. In fact it is the labor of the poor, extracted by the wealthy, then partially recovered from them in taxes that funds society. The wealthy hold the wealth not because they deserve it, but because they have used their power to take it.

Choosing to talk about what the rich pay, rather than how they have siphoned wealth from society (i.e. how much of their ill gotten gains should they be allowed to keep, rather than how much do they give) is not a "fact" even if it is a true statement, it is a political position, a rhetorical strategy, and a framing device -- it is an assault on your brain, an attempt to trick you into accepting a conservative frame covertly without being honest about it: "I'm just stating facts, what's wrong with that?" Well, everything is wrong with that. There are trillions of facts yet they state this one. For a reason, obviously.

You can reconstruct perfectly an ideological argument (of any ideology) based only on the sequence of facts they choose to present.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#422

Post by zeveb »

erikb wrote: post #266
jwatte wrote: post #74

The NSA needs educated smart people. The president has denigrated education and smart people. NSA employees work for the president. Reap what you sow.

With the speed of development in government organisation one could wonder if the current fallout is Trump's fault or Bush's faulth, though.

I think that you're missing someone in between Mr. Bush & President Trump …

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#424

Post by jessriedel »

nimbius wrote: post #393

Speaking from experience, I applied to the NSA a few years ago and its surreal how unrealistic the expectations were. a major problem with NSA employment is the mandatory 5 year contractor like status period with half-pay. the NSA expects seasoned professionals from the private sector to join its ranks with a 33k salary? get real. The agency also prides itself on an almost obscene reliance on Polygraphs, a technology…

> The agency also prides itself on an almost obscene reliance on Polygraphs, a technology no more accurate or scientifically sound than a babushka shuffling chicken bones and reading tea leaves.

I can't find out why I see smart people repeating this all the time. It's not true. Polygraphs are very flawed, and they are especially vulnerable to preparatory countermeasures, but they have non-trivial predictive power.

When I ask people to justify their dismissal of polygraphs, they generally point to the fact that they are not allowed in court, but this is a terrible reason. Hearsay isn't allowed in court either but that doesn't mean it isn't useful.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#425

Post by jessaustin »

mozumder wrote: post #415
kowdermeister wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> want me to list them? Yes, please

For highlights, after NSA I went to Intel and worked on early CMOS camera image sensors - you could put processor logic in the same die. Then went to a small company that designed Iridium Satellite communications chips - personal satellite communications from anywhere in the world! - as well as hyperspectral imaging spy satellites - instead of just Bayer RGB, you had 1000 wavelengths of sensor per pixel.. good for id…

Can you link to your magazine? It sounds interesting!

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#426

Post by le-mark »

dimva wrote: post #314
aristidb wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick google says: > Where can a mediocre software developer get $450K+?!

Any of the big tech companies, for starters. But, I don't work for any of those companies. You can PM me for details, we're hiring. Keep in mind this is in SF, and I don't know any senior software engineers here making less than $300k/year, more than everyone in the government except the President!

There's no pm on this site, and no email in your profile sooooo.... :shrugs:

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#427

Post by dvradrebel »

A lot of EU security experts (UK included) take time off to make extra money through companies like ours - senseiclub.com - to train corporate in anything from ethical hacking to certified GDPR compliance - they can't be making much at their regular jobs.

Some even register their own company - which makes sense - as freelancing full time, end of the day, is possible. Make your own schedule, decline to go to work, take a month off - it's good fun. We got some people booked for over 110 days out of 250 for 2018 already.

As for pensions and savings - folks go to wealth managers.

Hit me up if you want some really good training courses for your company or your buddy is looking for extra gigs (GCHQ folks are welcome).

Think productschool.com for cyber security, compliance, cloud and data.

Cheerio

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#428

Post by cgmg »

michael_storm wrote: post #185
cgmg wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is completely stupid and unacceptable. Why? > Why does Sundar Pichai make 500x more than the President? Do we, as a society, value running Google well 500x more than running our government well? Why must the Presidency be the most highly-paid position for the government to run well? That is a ridiculous and silly assumption.

Why must the CEO of Google be the most highly-paid position for Google to run well? The point is that the pay for participating in self-interested capitalist endeavors leads to outsize rewards compared to those dedicated to serving society. (Including thousands of career civil servants, since leadership positions have their own trappings.) If we value those who serve society, perhaps we should pay them commensurate w…

> Why must the CEO of Google be the most highly-paid position for Google to run well?

That's up to Google, not me. Unlike you, I don't seek to dictate what organizations should pay their managers.

> The point is that the pay for participating in self-interested capitalist endeavors leads to outsize rewards compared to those dedicated to serving society.

You are making two implicit claims here, both highly suspect and probably false:

- Working for Google contributes no value to society.

- Working for the government is synonymous with 'serving society'.

Google's flaws notwithstanding, the government has a terrible track record when it comes to incentives, inefficiency, corruption (particularly graft), accountability, and so on. Equating 'working for government' with 'serving society' is baffling.

> If we value those who serve society, perhaps we should...

Therein lies the problem with your rhetoric. When you say 'we', you pretend to speak for all taxpayers, but you do not. Your claim that higher pay would yield better results is probably true for some sectors and false for others, yet you make no attempt to distinguish between these and speak as if a universal raise would lead to better outcomes rather than more graft.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#429

Post by dclowd9901 »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #150
natch wrote: post #122

There's a lot of blaming of external factors being injected into this discussion. Namely, government pay scales, and the Trump factor. But let's not forget the NSA's own self-inflicted wounds as well. Let's see, here's what I remember: * mission creep * overreach * LOVEINT * massive collection of bulk intelligence with dubious justifications * withholding information about 0 days it wanted to stockpile for its own us…

Yes, you forgot one thing: * We need a powerful spy organization to compete on the world stage. This is an unpopular truth that people in our circles tend to forget. Rome was an influence solely due to the success of their military. What do you think will happen when ours becomes ineffective? And the NSA is a key part of our military. Intelligence is everything. I think it's good the overreach was exposed, but I was…

I think this is something best left to "the market", of all things. If government wants to inflict technical damage on an opponent, have a group of contracted hackers to launch attacks or consult on security. Our government, with its risk averseness and archaic ways are not, in any way, set up to meaningfully fend off or launch digital attack.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#430

Post by dclowd9901 »

jessriedel wrote: post #424
nimbius wrote: post #393

Speaking from experience, I applied to the NSA a few years ago and its surreal how unrealistic the expectations were. a major problem with NSA employment is the mandatory 5 year contractor like status period with half-pay. the NSA expects seasoned professionals from the private sector to join its ranks with a 33k salary? get real. The agency also prides itself on an almost obscene reliance on Polygraphs, a technology…

> The agency also prides itself on an almost obscene reliance on Polygraphs, a technology no more accurate or scientifically sound than a babushka shuffling chicken bones and reading tea leaves. I can't find out why I see smart people repeating this all the time. It's not true. Polygraphs are very flawed, and they are especially vulnerable to preparatory countermeasures, but they have non-trivial predictive power. Wh…

If it doesn't stand up to "beyond a reasonable doubt" how can you have such faith in it? Hearsay is a fine example, as I wouldn't want my innocence predicated upon someone's flawed memory or whim.
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