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As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

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Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#261

Post by heisenbit »

emn13 wrote: post #226
prostoalex wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. There’s a slight silver lining to this - up until now there’s been very little motivation to reduce those large fixed costs.

So... How is this exactly a silver lining? Avoiding fixed costs is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. And that end (actually saving money/increasing efficiency) just receded further away. And hey, nobody actually knows exactly what is overhead, and what is valuable; if we all agreed on that, it would be much easier to cut. So this is likely to cut valuable stuff that's just not as immediately obviously v…

This is not about "valuable" staff. It is very clear that there is overhead based on historical and international benchmarks and such overhead can be identified without much trouble. Over the past decade or two decades the administrative costs have exploded. The salaries paid to some university administrators in the US is just too much and their numbers are mind-boggling. Also a fair number of prestige type buildings have been build which may contribute to student life and college attractiveness but little to student eduction. Some of this excess has been justified by having to compete with other schools but these other schools were also working hard on competing on beauty and not on substance. On the substance side teaching and research staffing is running more and more on short term contracts which either demotivates or forces a focus on publishing meaningless papers.

Besides the high fixed cost the universities are faced with unprecedented open access to information via the internet. Not all what a university does can be replaced but some stuff can. A low cost competitor is taking over part of their business - and probably the most profitable one.

It is not just that Trump made entry to the US more difficult. The cost for education went up. The competition is getting stronger. And the value delivered is decreasing due to lower social mobility. Unless one is going to the very top universities the chances to move up have decreased compared with the past. This is not so say it is not worth it but relatively it is less clear and for some subjects it became very risky.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#262

Post by sangnoir »

anon151516888 wrote: post #241
abusoufiyan wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "large-scale demographic manipulation on the part of the left and intelligentsia"? It sounds like you are trying to say people voted Republican to stop white people from becoming a minority in America? That cannot be achieved in 4 or even 8 years. And even if it could, why would the failure of that agenda be bad?

It may not have been a conscious thing. But I'm firmly of the opinion that this may have been the last election where Republicans were given the chance to reverse things. Daca, illegal immigrants voting, chain migration, refugees voting, PC control of public debate, leftist biased media and reporting, another 4 rounds of liberals leaving college indoctrinated into leftism, etc. All these things have been steadily cau…

> Daca, illegal immigrants voting, chain migration, refugees voting, PC control of public debate, leftist biased media and reporting, another 4 rounds of liberals leaving college indoctrinated into leftism

I wouldn't say "indoctrinated into leftism" as much as it's outright facing malicious rejection and animus from the right. Latin-American immigrants are a natural fit for the religious right: they are more religious and socially conservative than average, the only problem is that they are brown. The GOP had a narrow window to pivot, but unfortunately, that was around the time the tea-party wing was ascendant, leaving no room for moderates.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#263

Post by lostcolony »

TheCowboy wrote: post #259
desireco42 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a flaw in HN, he made legitimate and witty comment and has been punished for that. Now, I can't prevent people from downvoting, but it really prevents lively discussion. Maybe limit number of downvotes people can cast. I feel that this behavior is restricting normal discussion.

It's better thought of as a trade-off than a flaw, because a different type of discourse can form. There are alternative venues if you want threads of witty comments. No one is opposed to wit, but this comment didn't explain anything about the context. I needed to Google to know what the point was. It still seems more like a snarky comment than a serious argument. I could have just responded with some lazy remark say…

And that's not say that sarcasm etc can't actually be viewed favorably on HN, but it needs to -support the discourse-. A single counter example to something that was not itself taking an absolutist position is not meaningfully enhancing the discourse; it's just snark.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#264

Post by pm90 »

sangnoir wrote: post #262
anon151516888 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not have been a conscious thing. But I'm firmly of the opinion that this may have been the last election where Republicans were given the chance to reverse things. Daca, illegal immigrants voting, chain migration, refugees voting, PC control of public debate, leftist biased media and reporting, another 4 rounds of liberals leaving college indoctrinated into leftism, etc. All these things have been steadily cau…

> Daca, illegal immigrants voting, chain migration, refugees voting, PC control of public debate, leftist biased media and reporting, another 4 rounds of liberals leaving college indoctrinated into leftism I wouldn't say "indoctrinated into leftism" as much as it's outright facing malicious rejection and animus from the right. Latin-American immigrants are a natural fit for the religious right: they are more religiou…

It has always been surprising for me how much overt racism is still there in the GOP (I mean, not surprising after Bannon and Trump's election). Latin-Americans are (generally speaking) conservative, Christian, Pro-life etc. But since they're brown and speak Spanish, they were alienated by the GOP?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#265

Post by rdtsc »

pm90 wrote: post #243
rdtsc wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tell me why out of state students will pay significantly higher tuition when they can get a cheaper education in their State College? Because states are different? Wouldn't you say OK, NY, CA are different states with different universities, budgets, students, cultures etc. Why is it surprising that a student from Mississippi might want to go to UC Berkeley? > And are you saying that the State University wouldn't p…

> Because states are different? Wouldn't you say OK, NY, CA are different states with different universities, budgets, students, cultures etc. Why is it surprising that a student from Mississippi might want to go to UC Berkeley? There's only a few well known schools that attract students from all over the country. Note that we're not talking about the top 5 or even top 50. The typical example is Wright State Universi…

> Admissions officers and the International Students department is colluding to increase number of international students to increase the budget of the latter? Oh please. Gimme a break.

Did I say that? I thought I was agreeing with you there that universities might prefer American students in general because they _don't_ have to incur the additional admin cost. But you turned it around into universities want to get international students so they can incur the extra cost and hire more people. How does logic even make sense, do they get paid more state money if they have more admin staff?

> many US citizens just don't want to go to college? The US has a shit ton of Universities and there is more than enough room for all students, domestic and international. And like I said before, if American students did apply, I find it hard to believe that they would not get preference over international students.

Ok there aren't enough students, and universities might have to scale back.

> Now you're conflating things. The OP was talking about research in general.

Right but the article is talking about undergraduate international students and OP was talking about research setback in US in general. Yeah we can talk about general interest or kernels of interest and how some undergraduate students are involved, but that's moving the goal post. If we discuss graduate research, grants, state funds, then that's a different discussion.

> possible only with the smartest, hard-working people living, contributing ideas to your society.

Still don't see how undergraduate international students coming most likely from the wealthiest families paying full tuition to go to Kentucky State or Oklahoma State necessarily equates to a major setback in our society. There is nothing about them that's necessarily more hard working or being the smartest.

> Again, please don't use these hand-wavy anecdotal arguments. Maybe some Universities are like that. I was rejected by basically all the undergraduate programs

Ok but aren't you using the same hand-wavy anecdotal arguments? What's wrong with sharing personal experience. Thanks for sharing yours, I shared mine. You don't think that's representative that's fine. I went to college around 2000s so things might have changed since then. Also there are enough schools that everyone is going to experience something different.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#266

Post by rdtsc »

wenc wrote: post #239
rdtsc wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tell me why out of state students will pay significantly higher tuition when they can get a cheaper education in their State College? Because states are different? Wouldn't you say OK, NY, CA are different states with different universities, budgets, students, cultures etc. Why is it surprising that a student from Mississippi might want to go to UC Berkeley? > And are you saying that the State University wouldn't p…

> Besides passing TOEFL and showing up with a full tuition check what are the merit requirements is needed. You'd probably say high school grades, but I remember just handing them a hand written note from my high school principal which I translated myself and he signed. They didn't need SAT or ACT scores even. Maybe they do now, I didn't check. If this is your experience, it sounds like you are baselining your opinio…

> you are baselining your opinions on less reputable U.S. universities (and there are quite a few of them around. The U.S. has over 3000 colleges.)

It was an average state college. Not sure the "less reputable" sounds right but I guess you can put it that way. And that's mostly what the article at hand is talking about anyway.

> you absolutely cannot be admitted without the right grades.

Is the Kentucky State going to call a school in Bangladesh to verify the transcript? Wealthy people who can afford to send kids to school in US with full tuition can probably find a way to "buy" a good transcript from a local school. Maybe you meant that SAT is a requirement, then yes, it thing might have changed and it is more challenging.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#267

Post by tanilama »

sol_remmy wrote: post #255

This is good news. At the moment, universities are the primary gatekeepers to becoming a citizen in the U.S. Right now universities are capturing nearly 100% of the "citizenship cost" that immigrants pay start their path to becoming citizens. That is disgusting and greedy. With 100K in loans paid to the university, anyone can come to the U.S. on a student visa, make contacts with companies, and eventually become a U.…

If u read the article, it says Midwest schools are getting hit hard. New England elite schools will have no trouble shaking immigrants any way.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#269

Post by yedava »

sol_remmy wrote: post #255

This is good news. At the moment, universities are the primary gatekeepers to becoming a citizen in the U.S. Right now universities are capturing nearly 100% of the "citizenship cost" that immigrants pay start their path to becoming citizens. That is disgusting and greedy. With 100K in loans paid to the university, anyone can come to the U.S. on a student visa, make contacts with companies, and eventually become a U.…

According to the article, it was Midwest (aka "red" state) universities which have mostly benefited the most from foreign students.

Also what visa allows immigrants to skip university enrolment and be directly employed in a small town small business?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#270

Post by anxrn »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160
anxrn wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent surveys do appear to support a slowdown in international graduate school enrollments ([1] summary, [2] original study). Furthermore, this trend predates the immigration policies of the current administration, and I suspect this trend has further strengthened. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/28/graduate-scho... [2] http://cgsnet.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/CGS_GED16_Report_...

Both of those state there is a slowdown in enrollment percentage (and only .9% at that), not absolute numbers. There are still more international graduate students in 2017 than in any previous year.

This might be semantics, but a slowdown means exactly that: a drop in growth rate.
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