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As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

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Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#221

Post by anon151516888 »

pm90 wrote: post #211
throwaway7312 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that manufacture knowledge, innovation and the future. There is another side to this. And that is that the American university system has a distinct political agenda that is opposed to the interests of the Trump-supporting half of the American electorate. It is a bad thing for innovation when there are fewe…

Most of those who think highly of Universities have been educated at Universities. And they don't believe in it because they have all had a positive experience: that is statistically impossible. But they are aware of what it is and what it isn't. The divide isn't half and half as you put it. Rural areas wield a lot more political power nationally simply because of the way our system is structured. The half that is on…

>"The half that is on the right is old and white. In the comings decades, they will cease to exist (apologies for sounding morbid, I'm just stating facts) and their political influence will reduce dramatically."

This is precisely why Trump got elected: to stop large scale demographic manipulation on the part of the left and intelligentsia. If he doesn't solve that for the right, there won't be a second term. For him or for Republicans.

And to quote another anti-Trump commenter here: "That. Would.Be.Bad."

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#222

Post by addicted »

Momquist wrote: post #110
janekm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You underestimate the value of an “overseas” degree in “developing” countries like China. A student who comes back to China with a US/UK degree will get preferential access to first-tier city resident permits, direct financial “housing” benefits from the city, a good job and faster career advancement and more besides. Some of those benefits are starting to get scaled back but it’s still a big advantage.

About this, there was a relatively recent article from a chinese POV: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15769807 In this article, surprisingly, the author suggests that his education abroad (Cambridge) was a result of his failure in the chinese system. Finally, I threw in the towel, and asked my parents to send me abroad. Anywhere else on this earth would surely be better. And regarded western universities as much…

Personal experience: My college undergrad education which is considered one of the hardest in the country was a fraction of the difficulty compared to the education friends at home went through.

What it lacked in rigor, however, it more than made up in the remarkable growth of perspectives I experienced by interacting with students from a massive spectrum of backgrounds from all over the world.

That will be another major loss for US universities, outside of the purely financial side.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#223

Post by abusoufiyan »

anon151516888 wrote: post #221
pm90 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those who think highly of Universities have been educated at Universities. And they don't believe in it because they have all had a positive experience: that is statistically impossible. But they are aware of what it is and what it isn't. The divide isn't half and half as you put it. Rural areas wield a lot more political power nationally simply because of the way our system is structured. The half that is on…

>"The half that is on the right is old and white. In the comings decades, they will cease to exist (apologies for sounding morbid, I'm just stating facts) and their political influence will reduce dramatically." This is precisely why Trump got elected: to stop large scale demographic manipulation on the part of the left and intelligentsia. If he doesn't solve that for the right, there won't be a second term. For him…

What is "large-scale demographic manipulation on the part of the left and intelligentsia"?

It sounds like you are trying to say people voted Republican to stop white people from becoming a minority in America? That cannot be achieved in 4 or even 8 years. And even if it could, why would the failure of that agenda be bad?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#224

Post by dragonwriter »

acover wrote: post #166
dragonwriter wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The claim wasn’t factual Yes, it was. That is, it was a claim about a matter of fact. > How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? There's a number of possible operationalizations of productivity applicable to a Ph.D. program that are measurable and by which the issue could be addressed. Usually, the first thing to do would be to challenge the party making the dubious claim to…

The party making the claim is using anecdotal evidence. They have no data. I do not think anecdotal evidence is good evidence for such a strong claim. This makes the claim an opinion and not factual. This is only my opinion.

> The party making the claim is using anecdotal evidence.

No, the party making the fact claim made a fact claim limited to a particular program they had been in, and has, as yet, neither provided evidence (or even an operationalization) for that claim not been challenged to do so.

> They have no data.

That may or may not be the case; it's perfectly fine to dismiss the claim due to lack of data, better to challenge the claimant to provide support for the claim. Calling it racism is as unsupported as the claim itself.

> I do not think anecdotal evidence is good evidence for such a strong claim.

The fact claim made was particularly limited (about productivity in one Ph.D. program—from which no further generalization was claimed), it wasn't a particularly strong claim. That said, sure, anecdotal evidence is inadequate to support it, but then, not even anecdotal evidence was provided, only the bare claim.

> This makes the claim an opinion and not factual.

A claim on a matter of fact doesn't become anything other than a fact claim because it isn't offered with adequate support.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#225

Post by Broken_Hippo »

IronKettle wrote: post #193
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.... sports? Only if they aren't something that attract a crowd. I see very few colleges cutting basketball or football programs so they don't have to maintain stadiums any more.

Because those two sports are largely profitable and often subsidize other sports.

That seems not to be the case everywhere - they might make money but not profits anyway. It seems uncertain that they actually use the money to fund education. Not to mention the fact that they basically exploit the athletes, who aren't always even given a quality education in return. Some schools make every student help subsidize the sports programs.

[1]http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Ar... [2] http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/runnin... [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-...

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#226

Post by emn13 »

prostoalex wrote: post #174
lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

> There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. There’s a slight silver lining to this - up until now there’s been very little motivation to reduce those large fixed costs.

So... How is this exactly a silver lining? Avoiding fixed costs is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. And that end (actually saving money/increasing efficiency) just receded further away. And hey, nobody actually knows exactly what is overhead, and what is valuable; if we all agreed on that, it would be much easier to cut. So this is likely to cut valuable stuff that's just not as immediately obviously valuable.

For a hacker-news friendly analogy: the risks this causes for the unis is akin to short-term financial peril in a tech firm: so what gets cut isn't what's ultimately likely to be least valuable, but what's most risky: bye, bye moonshots and general innovation.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#227

Post by rdtsc »

pm90 wrote: post #214
rdtsc wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't affo…

> Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't afford to have 10 foreign languages or gyms or sports clubs. Using international students to keep those going seems a bit of a round-about way. Since many of those are state schools, maybe seeing why the states have cut funding to the schools is more useful. Tell m…

> Tell me why out of state students will pay significantly higher tuition when they can get a cheaper education in their State College?

Because states are different? Wouldn't you say OK, NY, CA are different states with different universities, budgets, students, cultures etc. Why is it surprising that a student from Mississippi might want to go to UC Berkeley?

> And are you saying that the State University wouldn't prefer Americans in their undergraduate programs? University administrators are Americans, and probably prefer Americans over others

Well yeah international students also incur an additional administrative cost to manage. Having lots of them also means needing to hire more staff in international students services department.

> It seems like international students are the only ones willing to pay higher out of state.

It seems not. Why is it crazy to think someone might want to go to school in a different state, and you're convinced only international students would do it? If people half way across the world want to fly out and study here paying double the tuition, why wouldn't people from other US states?

> The kernel of interest in research is laid during undergraduate study.

Not sure what you mean by "kernel of interest". OP was talking about undergraduate research as one of the top reasons US is losing out to other countries and so on. The point is there is minimal undergraduate research compared to graduate. Especially at the state colleges they are talking about. Kentucky State or Oklahoma State undergrads are not driving US research forward.

> But the hope is that the brightest and hard working will stay.

Whose hope? Not being sarcastic here just wondering. Do you think it is the US government's hope, universities or students? Maybe a combination of those? At the end of the day it is not a permanent residence track. It's H1B visas, marriages and other tracks which lead to permanent residence. Getting an F-1 and J-1 won't. Quite the opposite J-1 visas used to explicitly require students return and spend some time in their home countries with the "hope" of sharing the experience.

> You say this as if these wealthy students have no merit.

I say this because the OP implied it is pure merit. Though I think they mostly muddied the waters confusing graduate and undergraduate programs. And I didn't imply it was bad, was just wondering if that's something we want, as you said maybe we do.

> You have to have merit and wealth.

Besides passing TOEFL and showing up with a full tuition check what are the merit requirements is needed. You'd probably say high school grades, but I remember just handing them a hand written note from my high school principal which I translated myself and he signed. They didn't need SAT or ACT scores even. Maybe they do now, I didn't check.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#228

Post by pentae »

netheril96 wrote: post #213
sombremesa wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you have to do is get married to an American. You could be the best and brightest or the dumb and dullest, won't matter.

Indian/Chinese men are much less desired than whites and sometimes blacks and latinos in the US dating market. Marrying an American is probably harder than alternative approaches, at least for males from these countries.

Or you know, put up an ad on craigslist.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#229

Post by IronKettle »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #225
IronKettle wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those two sports are largely profitable and often subsidize other sports.

That seems not to be the case everywhere - they might make money but not profits anyway. It seems uncertain that they actually use the money to fund education. Not to mention the fact that they basically exploit the athletes, who aren't always even given a quality education in return. Some schools make every student help subsidize the sports programs. [1] http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Ar..…

> That seems not to be the case everywhere - they might make money but not profits anyway.

While it's mostly true that athletic programs as a whole are not profitable, it's also true that a majority of football and men's basketball programs are profitable[1]:

> > Between 50 and 60 percent of football and men’s basketball programs have reported net generated revenues (surpluses) for each of the nine years reported, while the dollar amount has increased slightly but steadily each year. (3.6)

> It seems uncertain that they actually use the money to fund education.

They don't. They use the money to fund sports programs that aren't profitable, like women's basketball. Women's basketball, in particular, cost FBS schools (in aggregate) about $1.8 million in FY 2014 (though ice hockey isn't far behind at $1.4 million).

Note that I'm not making a judgement here: I don't think we should eliminate women's basketball. But if we're going to argue about what actually costs the school money, we should at least be honest about it.

> Not to mention the fact that they basically exploit the athletes, who aren't always even given a quality education in return.

No qualms there. The NCAA's treatment of athletes is asinine and I'm quite certain we'll view this as a black mark in the history of sports.

1: http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015%20Division%20I%...

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#230

Post by IronKettle »

eastWestMath wrote: post #216
IronKettle wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those two sports are largely profitable and often subsidize other sports.

Yeah the entire NCAA system is basically funded by young men playing basketball and football, a few who are objectively being cheated out of millions of dollars (because the ncaa lobbies the nfl and nba to have minimum age requirements).

No arguments there.
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