NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#401

Post by smokeyj » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #183

kodablah wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't all of these (legal) rules, red tape, stories from your two personal friends, etc support the original argument that they employ patriots or the less qualified? Otherwise, why would a highly qualified person without any preference towards civic duty subject themselves to all of this when they have their pick of jobs? Especially in IT.

If the problem is attracting better people, how would that get fixed just by making it easier to fire people? I wouldn't claim that the government has the best of the best across the board. In some areas they do, like fighter pilots or criminal investigators. In others, they generally don't, like web application developers. What I disagree with is the idea that the government is full of incompetent people, who just n…

> It ignores the reality of how the government really works

Have you ever worked or contracted for the government? Are you trying to say they're not incompetent? I'm just wondering which division of NASA you worked for.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#402

Post by 1024core » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

pcwalton wrote: post #367

1024core wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. Not really. Don't get me wrong: I like the people in our post office. But they'd be killed in the private sector. At my local grocery store (Safeway), they'll add a new cashier if the line becomes long. The Post Office? Nope! During busy times, I've seen the line go beyond 15 or 20, and there's thi…

> The Post Office? Nope! During busy times, I've seen the line go beyond 15 or 20, and there's this only 1 slow clerk taking his time, chit-chatting, in no hurry at all. > At my local grocery store (Safeway), they'll add a new cashier if the line becomes long. The Post Office? Nope! During busy times, I've seen the line go beyond 15 or 20, and there's this only 1 slow clerk taking his time, chit-chatting, in no hurry…

> Because Safeway has enough manpower to do that.

I can assure you, the cashiers at Safeway make significantly less money than the USPS staff. And accounting for guaranteed pensions, even more so. Most are minimum wage employees with no job security.

And to answer your speculation: there are employees at the Post Office. You can see them through the doors.

And finally: why isn't the office staffed properly, given that these holidays like Christmas aren't exactly new and unforeseen?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#403

Post by mozumder » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #205

mozumder wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I designed & architected supercomputers at the NSA as a teenager, starting as a co-op, using manufacturing tech that still isn't public decades later. LOL @ the idea of anyone in private industry giving me the opportunity to do that. These are some of the smartest, yet most normal people in the world. They don't go apeshit about free food or Silicon Valley startups. You'll never get fired, and you can raise a family…

Saw you were being down-voted, seems unfair, it's good to have a counter-example or an opposing view in a discussion. Maybe it seems to much like a recruiting advertisement... > After about $70k in salary, people are happy anyways. Unfortunately living in DC/VA/MD on that you are competing with private companies which pay more and thus housing and well just about everything is a bit hard to manage on that salary. > I…

NSA lets co-ops rotate through various departments to give them a sense of what career path works for them. And nothing wrong with converting old Perl scripts when you're starting. It's a good way to get ramped up in the basics.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#404

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #305

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

And at the same time we are arguing for basic income. It is not all bad, these people at least have an income and they allow you to make your income because of their incompetence. Chances are that if their employer could fire them you would not have your job either.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#405

Post by zeveb » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

imbur wrote: post #215

kodablah wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't all of these (legal) rules, red tape, stories from your two personal friends, etc support the original argument that they employ patriots or the less qualified? Otherwise, why would a highly qualified person without any preference towards civic duty subject themselves to all of this when they have their pick of jobs? Especially in IT.

It is not to say that the private sector is without problems completely. These rules around promotions and hiring in the public sector prevent certain other problems like favoritism, sexism, nepotism.

> These rules around promotions and hiring in the public sector prevent certain other problems like favoritism, sexism, nepotism.

If allowing those things results in a net better experience than forbidding them, maybe they aren't really problems after all. Maybe favoritism & nepotism, in particular, are good ways (within limits) to build strongly-functioning teams.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#406

Post by yarrel » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

mozumder wrote: post #176

qmalzp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. Not to mention free food, potential for career growth, and an open non-militaristic culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. I honestly don't understand why someone would work for the NSA given the choice.

I designed & architected supercomputers at the NSA as a teenager, starting as a co-op, using manufacturing tech that still isn't public decades later. LOL @ the idea of anyone in private industry giving me the opportunity to do that. These are some of the smartest, yet most normal people in the world. They don't go apeshit about free food or Silicon Valley startups. You'll never get fired, and you can raise a family…

> The NSA doesn't spy on US citizens

That is a lie, but I understand why people would need to believe it in order to work for the NSA.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#407

Post by yarrel » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

throwaway9982 wrote: post #398

qaq wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He/She was down-voted because a) Never worked for NSA b) never lived in DC metro.

Why?

The NSA records on their communcations show this. ;-)

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#408

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:23 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #305

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

I have not worked in the government because I haven't been willing to submit myself to that level of inflexibility in my work.

However, I know a lot of people who have worked or currently do work in government, up to and including innovation fellows at the federal level.

I think you're responding to a point that I didn't make. I never said that government tech workers are top notch; in fact I know they generally are not.

My point is that even if you could fire anyone with no process, you would still be stuck with the inflexible structure that government tends to impose on any employee. You would still have trouble recruiting. Why aren't you a government employee? Because it would be too hard to get fired there? No, because it's more enjoyable to work in private industry. Me too.

Management basics: you cannot fire your way to success. You have to hire and empower great employees.

Firing is about efficiency; but what customers and stakeholders really want is performance. It's like saying "my car is running out of gas--I better take off the roof rack." Cutting does not provide forward momentum.

Fundamentally, people want to believe that the reason that government sucks, is because government workers suck. The reality is that government sucks because it imposes structural limits on the empowerment of employees, which harms flexibility and recruiting too.

And those structural limits were put in place, because everyone thinks government workers suck! It's a circle of pain.

BTW I would not spend too much time feeling superior to government tech workers. Governments waste a shitload of money on contractors too. And the rest of the tech industry tends to look down on government contractors about the same as government employees.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#409

Post by wfo » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #308

wahern wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal floor of difficulty will always be greater with Federal employees as opposed to private employees as Federal employees have a property interest in their job. In other words, no Federal employee can be fired without some sort of paper trail. This is a constitutional Due Process issue and not something that Congress can easily address. That said, I think the difficulty--or at least the consequence of the diff…

Serious question, why is being fired from your government job a due process issue while being fired from your private sector job is not? If tomorrow, all government jobs were made At Will and the pay increased accordingly, what property of due process has been violated?

Being fired from a private sector job is a due process issue as well.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#410

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #245

snowwrestler wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The movers and shakers of government in the U.S. are the elected officials and their political appointees. A lot of them actually do come from private industry or academia. The staff of government have to work within whatever decisions get handed down to them from the political process. The political process does not always prioritize staff flexibility and initiative. To the contrary, it's a favorite pastime of polit…

You make it sound like "political law making" is a problem and some other form of non-political law making would be a superior solution. The performance of the civil services in dictatorships indicates otherwise: they're invariably more corrupt, more prone to latching on to bad policies and refusing to give them up even in the face of disaster and so on. Governments don't refuse to fire incompetent people because of…

No, my point is not about democracy vs dictatorship or something.

My point is that in government, there is a hard divide between the people who make the rules, and the people who implement the rules. The people who make the rules are rewarded for distrusting and limiting the capabilities of the staff.

In private industry, it's the opposite. Executives ultimately are judged by the performance of their staff, and they have great flexibility in how they organize and delegate authority down the chain.

Firing is not the key secret to success. Dictators can fire anyone whenever they want, but as you point out, their governments are not necessarily any better, and in many ways worse, than the U.S.