I'll never forget talking to an NSA recruiter (cybersecurity expert doing a recruiting assignment, not a full-time recruiter) at a university job fair. I asked if he felt like he was really spending most of his time protecting people or if a lot of it was political agenda and budget protection, etc. His answer was, "well, it's not all politics..." Thank you, recruiter, for making that career choice a supremely easy one.
NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
361–370 of 547 posts
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…
holy shit do you work for usps! you described my work environment almost to the T;
State level public safety agency is about as specific as I'd like to be, sorry :)
I'm sure if you trawled through my history you'd be able to piece it together.
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
You'd think the genuinely patriotic would avoid working for the NSA, since it apparently results in exile to Russia.
He's not exiled? The US wants him back very much.
To be unfairly tried in a trial where he won't even be allowed to argue to the jury that his actions were justified.
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…
It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…
> Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town.
Not really. Don't get me wrong: I like the people in our post office. But they'd be killed in the private sector.
At my local grocery store (Safeway), they'll add a new cashier if the line becomes long. The Post Office? Nope! During busy times, I've seen the line go beyond 15 or 20, and there's this only 1 slow clerk taking his time, chit-chatting, in no hurry at all.
Or the DMV. Visit the SF DMV if you want to see government at "work".
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#365It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…
The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…
These issues are often talked about in the abstract, but I've seen them first hand.
I worked in military medicine, and the IT department at one of the hospitals was entirely staffed with (in some cases well-meaning), but wildly unqualified staff.
Mostly this was people who were previously department secretaries and who turned out to be just generally incompetent, unmotivated or abrasive. As they couldn't be fired, they were promoted to IT. It was a dumping ground.
Their "Database Administrator" literally didn't know what SQL was and that's how it was for everything. One of them told me to my face (I was a contractor there to train them on an app): "I'm only going to be here for 5 more years, so I don't really want to learn all this."
Disgraceful.
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…
Do you think that some of the hiring practices are out of whack as well? I've heard it claimed that sometimes the government treats hiring as welfare employment programs - which adds a whole new spin on this.
I've never heard it phrased like this specifically but there is absolutely a mindset during interviews that the applicant gets the job unless you can find a specific reason not to give it to them. To @dragonwriter's point the rules surrounding Civil Service are even more extreme. Here is a real world example of CS hiring procedures:
0. CS Commission sets a minimum written score for oral interviews. Score is arbitrary and largely designed to limit number of interviews to an acceptable number (20-30 total per vacancy).
1. Commission asks applicants the same questions, in the same order, asked by the same commissioner. Scores are subjective but on a 1-7 scale.
2. Does the mean score surpass the 60% pass rate? If yes, applicant moves to next step.
3. Does the applicant, in their background investigation or oral interview, admit to any explicitly listed disqualifying acts as listed in the Commission's rules & regulations? If no, applicant moves to next step.
4. The written and oral scores are averaged based on a prescribed weighted formula. This weighted score is 0-100.
5. Is the applicant a veteran? Add a certain number of points.
6. Give the top three names to the hiring body (varies by position).
7. Is a veteran in the top three? Guess what, they get the job no matter what.
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…
> Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. Not really. Don't get me wrong: I like the people in our post office. But they'd be killed in the private sector. At my local grocery store (Safeway), they'll add a new cashier if the line becomes long. The Post Office? Nope! During busy times, I've seen the line go beyond 15 or 20, and there's thi…
> The Post Office? Nope! During busy times, I've seen the line go beyond 15 or 20, and there's this only 1 slow clerk taking his time, chit-chatting, in no hurry at all.
> At my local grocery store (Safeway), they'll add a new cashier if the line becomes long. The Post Office? Nope! During busy times, I've seen the line go beyond 15 or 20, and there's this only 1 slow clerk taking his time, chit-chatting, in no hurry at all.
Because Safeway has enough manpower to do that.
> Or the DMV. Visit the SF DMV if you want to see government at "work".
I've actually been reasonably satisfied with the approach the CA DMV takes, which is to do everything possible to make people not have to visit the DMV in person. I was pleasantly surprised by how easy online driver's license renewal was (they even had a mobile version).
I'd take the USPS over, say, the customer service experience on the US legacy airlines any day.
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#368It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…
> if the NSA is going to spy on us, wouldn't you like that to be as secure as possible? If I was an American, I would deny the premis. If the NSA is going to spy on you, wouldnt you like your fellow country men to refuse to work for them.
So much this.
I often wonder if I'm the only person on this list that wouldn't work for them simply because I feel its WRONG.
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#369There's a lot of blaming of external factors being injected into this discussion. Namely, government pay scales, and the Trump factor. But let's not forget the NSA's own self-inflicted wounds as well. Let's see, here's what I remember: * mission creep * overreach * LOVEINT * massive collection of bulk intelligence with dubious justifications * withholding information about 0 days it wanted to stockpile for its own us…
Yes, you forgot one thing: * We need a powerful spy organization to compete on the world stage. This is an unpopular truth that people in our circles tend to forget. Rome was an influence solely due to the success of their military. What do you think will happen when ours becomes ineffective? And the NSA is a key part of our military. Intelligence is everything. I think it's good the overreach was exposed, but I was…
"* We need a powerful spy organization to compete on the world stage." - maybe I'm missing some irony here, but how is this a "self-inflicted wound"?
Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…
Payroll is the number 1 expense for government agencies. Easier firing would make a world of difference. I think the root cause is pensions. When people are tied to pensions for a retirement, firing people becomes a much bigger deal. Just pay a match into a retirement account and then when people can go, they go. Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them.
Pensions just don't make sense mathematically. If they're solvent based on the state's investments, then the employee is getting a raw deal compared to having just invested the money themselves. If they're not, then I as a taxpayer am getting a raw deal by helping to pay for someone's retirement because they worked for a state agency decades ago.
My state starts doling out pensions at 5 years. A friend of mine worked for a state senator in the 90s for 6 years. He's got something like $1200/mo guaranteed during his retirement for 6 years of borderline political work ~25 years ago.
I know it's a politically charged subject but I don't see why from an economic/mathematical perspective it's any better than moving the same investments to the market. Or at least if you're going to keep the pensions, only give them out for full service (20 years) like the military, and make it easier to fire a government worker for poor performance.
I shouldn't be able to sit on my thumbs for a few years and have my mortgage covered by the taxpayers during my retirement.