As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting • Hacker News Board

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#171

Post by mastersk3 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 8:55 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #36

petilon wrote: post #10

This is bad news. People like Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, Elon Musk, founder of Tesla and SpaceX, not to mention CEOs of Google, Microsoft and Adobe all came to the US as students. Without the immigration of the brightest on the planet, the US will, over time, lose its edge.

As other have pointed out, this is mostly about the schools losing full-tuition international students, ie.e "International students pay double the $6,445 tuition of Missouri residents" --which is insane. I mean, it's insane for in-state students to have to shell out 6.5 thousand a year for higher ed... The international students are typically those kids of parents who are perhaps middle to upper middle class in a fo…

I'm not sure about the other countries you mentioned, but Indian students cannot repay a dollar loan in rupees. The currency conversion is just not favourable and that is why Indian students tend to stay longer in the states trying to repay their loan.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#172

Post by pdkl95 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 8:55 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #158

threeseed wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why people are downvoting this. It’s illogical to claim you can be racist against diverse countries like the USA or Australia. Pretty sure the OP is more referring to xenophobia than racism.

race noun Definition of race for Students 1 : any one of the groups that human beings can be divided into based on shared distinctive physical traits >>> 2 : a group of individuals who share a common culture or history the English race 3 : a major group of living things the human race https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race

> share a common culture or history

Americans do not share a common culture or history. We share a political system that is at least in theoretically based on guaranteeing the freedom to participate in whatever culture you want, that isn't limited to people of a specific historical association (either by genetics or citizenship).

> the English race

While England does have a history and culture that traditionally was officially established by the king, Merriam-Webster's use in this example can apply when referring to historic England, the term isn't really appropriate for modern England.

However, in Merriam-Webster's defense, this mildly misleading definition might be an attrempt to keep explanations simple with references young people would know. The definition that you copied was from the "RACE Defined for Kids" section of the page. Their recommended definition at the top of the page doesn't have the same issues:

    1 : a breeding stock of animals

    2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation
          belonging to the same stock
      b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests,
          habits, or characteristics

    3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species;
          also : a taxonomic category (such as a subspecies) representing
          such a group
      b : breed
      c : a category of humankind that shares certain
          distinctive physical traits

Most of these variations refer to what we now know is genetics. Isolated groujps of a species experience genetic drift (and other effects) that create genetic features unique to each group. Eventually the differences are large enough and we call them separate species (see: Darwin and the entire field of study that followed we call modern biology).

None of that applies to "Americans" as a group of people. We are famously a "melting pot" where people from very different races (again in theory) are supposed to have the freedom to "melt" together however they desire.

edit: For a fun, snarky, and informative (with very impressive directing), see ContraPoints video "What is Race?" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY3lBKje46E )

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#173

Post by sumedh » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:01 AM UTC

conjecTech wrote: post #89

This can be largely explained by the drop in birth rates in China associated with the one child policy. The number of college-aged Chinese in 2020 will be roughly half what it was a decade before[1]. People have seen this coming for years. The administrators blaming this on politics are most likely scapegoating for their poor planning. [1] https://www.indexmundi.com/china/age_structure.html

> The administrators blaming this on politics are most likely scapegoating for their poor planning.

Couple of people I know in India right now are looking at going to Canada, Aus or NZ because they are uncertain what is going on under Trump. 5 to 10 years back almost everyone in my friend circle in India wanted to go to the US.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#174

Post by prostoalex » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:10 AM UTC

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

> There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs.

There’s a slight silver lining to this - up until now there’s been very little motivation to reduce those large fixed costs.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#175

Post by chillydawg » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #165

tanilama wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U overstated it vastly...In China, UK degrees got so inflated, many of which being one year master, that they are pretty useless now.Oversea working experience is still valued

In China, UK degrees got so inflated This is driven by ex-poly degree mills cashing in. If you’re studying in the UK it’s Russell Group is still prestigious for the right reasons. Otherwise the value is questionable.

Even that is changing. I know of a masters course in a UK Russell group uni where Chinese students outnumber any other group including locals. The result of this is terrible, terrible English skills and huge pressure from the "sales" department to give better grades to keep that sweet Chinese money flowing. Essays written in broken English that suddenly and suspiciously transition into perfect prose are common and no longer punished. When one of the students was asked why they picked that course at that uni, they said it was because the entry requirements were easiest and the level of English required was low.

Now, obviously, this course at this uni is clearly going to crash and burn at some point, having used up all good will pandering to rich Chinese students. The problem is that this is an industry race to the bottom. Sure, the main stem subjects at Cambridge or Manchester are in good shape, but all the fringe subjects are going to shit, especially the one year masters courses.

I can't name the specific course or university as I was told this in confidence by a faculty member, so believe what you will, but the race to the bottom is happening and is causing immense harm to UK institutions at all levels, not just the ex-poly degree mills.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#176

Post by forapurpose » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:37 AM UTC

dmode wrote: post #42

I would highly recommend to Indian students not to study in the US going forward. At least until the generally hostile attitude towards immigrants and meaningful reforms in GC attainment is done. If you plan to lay down your roots in America after school, it will simply not happen in the current climate. Go study in Canada, Australia, UK, and India and contribute to those societies

Is that based on some evidence or expertise that everyone else isn't aware of?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#177

Post by jimmywanger » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:38 AM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #167

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So besides the loss in basic research, is it bad that universities should get squeezed? ...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.

Yeah, the problem is that they don't cut admin first. They cut newspapers, and sports, and bring in adjuncts who cost a lot less and are desperate for work.

>> So besides the loss in basic research

> Yeah, the problem is that they don't cut admin first.

Your basic value proposition is that admin is less important than basic research and that's getting cut.

In the article, it mainly that music, swimming, newspapers, and languages get cut. It says that they had to make cutbacks in CS but don't specify what the college did exactly.

As far as I know, there is no basic research going on in music, swimming, newspapers, and languages. CS definitely basic research, but that was glossed over. Any sort of professor who could be somewhat replaced with an adjunct is not able to perform basic research.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#178

Post by forapurpose » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:47 AM UTC

throwaway7312 wrote: post #140

brohoolio wrote: post #16

Trump is going to ruin the American economy. Attack universities by discouraging foreign students. Cut federal funding for research. Encourage political attacks on universities. The most damaging will be not forgiving student loans from people who went to scam universities, like Trump university. What Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that man…

>> Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that manufacture knowledge, innovation and the future. There is another side to this. And that is that the American university system has a distinct political agenda that is opposed to the interests of the Trump-supporting half of the American electorate. It is a bad thing for innovation when there are fewe…

> the American university system has a distinct political agenda that is opposed to the interests of the Trump-supporting half of the American electorate.

The ideological conservative movement repeats this claim, but it doesn't make it so. Can you substantiate it? Can you define what it means?

Like any ideological movement, there can be no debate or discussion; anyone who fails to drink the kool-ade and promote the ideology must be silenced. It can't be that the facts simply are inconvenient to the ideology, that reasonable people can disagree, or that a member of the movement could learn something. The ideology is correct and those who don't accept it are apostates.

They'd done that with climate scientists, journalists, the entire State Department, universities, and more.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#179

Post by danmaz74 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:50 AM UTC

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #85

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

So besides the loss in basic research, is it bad that universities should get squeezed? ...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.

> ...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.

You think you live in that universe?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#180

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:06 AM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #74

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

I wonder how many of these students come primarily for the subsequent job opportunities. If they were able to come for the education but not the subsequent OPT, would they still be willing to come? I've seen the tuition some of them paying like $50k/year and not sure how they can afford it unless they are hoping for big returns afterwards.

[deleted]