LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#281

Post by gaius » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:27 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #220

freedomben wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

Find what's different in America and fix it

The average American spends several hours a week watching TV and movies where the rule-breaking shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later cop is the hero. Probably most people who join the police see themselves in that role.

Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun...

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#282

Post by Waterluvian » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:27 PM UTC

kipari wrote: post #210

TillE wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "well, he shouldn't have had a knife in his hand" Right. German cops, for example, are trained to shoot people in the leg in that scenario. It happens quite frequently and successfully. American cops seem like they're all on a hair trigger to kill at the slightest hint of danger, rather than as a last resort when they're truly threatened.

I remember a tidbit from the Counter-Strike: Global Offensive loading screen saying that the federal GSG-9 group only has fired shots on five missions throughout their existence. Wikipedia seems to back this up with some reportedly true information[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9#Publicly_known_missions

I wonder if the GSG and other special units see the use of violence as a colossally embarassing failure.

"That tactical team couldn't even do their job right and had to resort to shooting the guy."

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#283

Post by r00fus » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:27 PM UTC

znfi wrote: post #197

One thing with all of this which puzzles me as a non-American, how does the "acceptance" of people getting killed by the police fit together with the whole anti-gorvernment thing which seems fairly common in the US as well? One would think that if one does not like the government, one would be extremely upset about the gouvernment randomly killing people. But for some reason this does not seem to be the case. I guess…

It makes sense if you realize that actual voices in our so-called-democracy are drowned out by people who have power/money and extremists (who are often funded by the former).

In an oligarchy, your opinion doesn't count unless you have money.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by DanBC » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:27 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #277

CalChris wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the rest but underpaid, no. For the Oakland Police Department, where I live, the starting salary is $69,912 to $98,088. Retirement starts at 50. This job requires a GED.

> I agree with the rest but underpaid, no. For the Oakland Police Department, where I live, the starting salary is $69,912 to $98,088. Retirement starts at 50. For a job dealing with crime reports and disputes all day and one of the routine job hazards is being shot dead at any moment, that's hardly a particularly attractive deal. Hell, I doubt there's very many people on HN would take that job for twice the pay.

132 police died while on duty in 2016. There are 750,000 police officers in the US.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by throwaway2048 » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #185

ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

I like how the police feel threatened and have a hard job is more important than the fact a completely innocent person died.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#286

Post by StavrosK » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

reificator wrote: post #273

StavrosK wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grandparent said that the person most at fault was the person who called it in. I disagree, the people most at fault were the police, by far.

I get where you're coming from, but the person who called it in named themselves SWauTistic and makes a hobby of this behavior.

Yes, the guy is definitely guilty of some degree of murder, because he knew what he was doing. However, I'm contrasting it with my country, where calling in such a situation would be very unlikely to get someone killed, because the police are much more reticent to shoot people. In such a case, the caller could be guilty of wasting resources, but not of murder. The only difference is the handling of each situation by the police, hence my reasoning above.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#287

Post by r00fus » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #261

dsego wrote: post #254

Do the police have to shoot to kill? Is it possible to aim somewhere else? Or shoot into the air? Also, I think in my country they are obligated to shout out "stop, I will shoot" or something to that effect.

Handguns are (perhaps surprisingly) lethal. Here (Sweden) officers somewhat controversially use hollow point in order to reduce the risk of stray bullets going through walls or suspects. This has the side effect that suspects shot in thighs, nearly anywhere in the abdomen etc are often instantly in critical condition.

Police using hollow-points sounds insane.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#288

Post by alsetmusic » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #185

ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

> Oh and add to this the stress that if you screw up, one of the following is likely:

I think this sums it up better than if you were trying to make the point that I’m about to attempt. It’s not necessarily “likely” that someone is going to die in all of these situations. It’s a possibility.

It’s probably near impossible to tell the difference in the middle of a high-stress situation, but the assumption that it’s going to result in death at the outset is the problem.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#289

Post by sago » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #113

dopamean wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right. The difference is that we are a more violent society. Violence is something we value here. Just look at entertainment for children. You're way more likely to find parents more amenable to letting their children watch scenes of people being hurt than people making love. One gets a pass and the other is considered obscene.

I don't think that's uniquely American. As a child I consumed plenty of violent media (mostly American, in fact!) but in my country very few people get shot.

I think most of us would agree here that "violent media creates violent people" is false. But violent media can still be a problem, if it is caused and enabled by a pathological society, a symptom of that pathology. I personally think it is, and I think that's the point the post you were responding to was making.

I don't think it is any coincidence that most of the violent gun-laden media you consumed as a child was American.

Killing is a* fundamental problem-solving strategy in American culture (both domestically consumed and exported). And the overwhelming most common method of killing is a gun. This is why it is very rare to find a film or TV show with any kind of action/adventure/thriller/crime/mystery plot without guns, usually on the poster.

When this is true in other countries, it is usually because they are intentionally aping American media.

I think it has never occurred to most Americans that there is any alternative to 'kill the bad guys'.

* On reflection it is probably 'the' fundamental problem-solving strategy in American media.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#290

Post by trophycase » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #232

varjag wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

America's biggest problem is it's heterogeneity, not guns.