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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#251

Post by oh_sigh »

CalChris wrote: post #141
meri_dian wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune? Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the b…

In this case there was no immediate and present danger yet SWAT was called in. There was a report which turned out to be false. The SWAT team also was under no danger when they shot this guy. I should add that being a police officer is not a particularly dangerous job. A telephone lineman has a dangerous job. A garbage man has a dangerous job. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

The fact that there are jobs with higher injury rates out there doesn't make policing not dangerous.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#252

Post by taberiand »

ivanhoe wrote: post #175
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

The worst scenario is that an innocent person is killed

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#253

Post by FireBeyond »

menacingly wrote: post #199

I think of a lot of the replies here miss the point of why the police are in "such a hurry". Usually, they believe that the person has hostages that are in imminent danger. I'm sure there is a big component of macho gun buzz, but the fact that they're in a rush is an understandable component of the situation. That's why they don't sit in the car and try to have a chat with the "hostage taker". Obviously, the fact tha…

> but the fact that they're in a rush is an understandable component of the situation

Eh. If I'm taking my engine company to a structure fire, we walk, we don't run. If it's a rescue situation, I still do a 360 around the structure to identify additional hazards (while my crew is setting up). That's a situation with people in verified imminent threat to life danger.

We work a patient in cardiac arrest. We have checklists. Even with this imminent threat to the patient's life, we will still at pertinent times, stop, and review those lists.

Charging in gung ho causes more problems than it solves.

If the hostage (if they existed) is going to be dead 10 seconds later, they're probably going to be dead the first time the suspect hears SWAT enter.

Similar to a fire or MVA - "you getting there 10 seconds or 30 seconds earlier is going to save a life on so few occasions, if ever, for a much greater risk".

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#255

Post by smithhallam »

adrianN wrote: post #119
glenstein wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your point about non-lethal weapons: it seems to me that we haven't yet claimed the low-hanging fruit in the US when it comes to this problem. Why not indulge the most base impulses of both silicon valley and police militarization with high tech, non lethal weapons? It will probably introduce new problems, such as even more unnecessary use of force. It addresses absolutely none of the cultural or institutional pro…

There are only "less lethal" weapons. People can very well die from being tasered for example.

Yes, but it is less likely that they will die from being tasered than from being shot.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#256

Post by alkonaut »

Dove wrote: post #70
lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

This is a training issue, absolutely. But Police should be trained to deal with the population, never the other way around. No one should be shot because a police officer is spooked by a hand that isn’t where they can see it. Suspects should have the benefit of the doubt and police officers should carry all the risk.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#258

Post by leesalminen »

oh_sigh wrote: post #249
alkonaut wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be a simple as calling the suspects phone or knocking doors at neighbors. If the suspect answered the phone and said he was asleep and said he would be happy to show the officers around his house, maybe things would have gone differently.

Did you listen to the audio? The person calling 911 was the supposed suspect he claimed to have killed his father, so I'm not sure how you would contact the suspect without just getting the same 'prankster' again. Knocking on doors of the neighbors sounds great, but does it give you any useful information if no one heard a gun shot? What if he shot his dad in the basement, or the walls of the house are thick enough t…

I still don’t see how calling a phone number associated with that address and seeing who picks up could hurt anything.

This phone call could’ve occurred while SWAT was deploying to the scene.

They only could’ve gained by doing this.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#259

Post by the_chaconne »

menacingly wrote: post #199

I think of a lot of the replies here miss the point of why the police are in "such a hurry". Usually, they believe that the person has hostages that are in imminent danger. I'm sure there is a big component of macho gun buzz, but the fact that they're in a rush is an understandable component of the situation. That's why they don't sit in the car and try to have a chat with the "hostage taker". Obviously, the fact tha…

The video of the shooting was released, and you can tell from the video that, with the amount of interaction the police had with the victim, they can't really tell if he's the supposed hostage or the hostage taker. So even in the interest of rescue, the police fucked up big time.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#260

Post by Balero »

meri_dian wrote: post #107
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune? Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the b…

This was not a dangerous situation. They should not have had their weapons drawn.
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