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Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

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Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#321

Post by artsrc »

houseabsolute wrote: post #120
dminor wrote: post #112

Google's an engineering company and I think they should fight back as such. Get together a team of your best and brightest, take Postgres, and turn it into a drop-in replacement for Oracle. And be very public about your efforts.

Because Oracle doesn't own any patents on the implementation of relational databases that they couldn't also sue Google over . . . The most engineer-ish thing to do is a back of the envelope calculation: 1. Estimate how much it'd cost to fight the suit. 2. Estimate the probability of winning. 3. Estimate the damages if you lose. 4. Estimate Oracle's ask for licensing the patents. If (1 + 2 * 3) < 4, fight, else settl…

I heard of a company that specialized in costing projects to switch from Microsoft Office to Open Office. None of their customers actually switched. They just took the costing of the project to Microsoft sales and said: "we want to pay this".

So here is the cheap way for Google to attack Oracle: Fund startups that research how much it costs to switch from Oracle servers to Postgres, then sell reports to Oracle customers so they can get lower prices.

I can't see that funding some startups makes you vulnerable to suits, but I am not a lawyer.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#322

Post by artsrc »

jbarham wrote: post #130
patrickaljord wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Google's android does not use Sun's GPLed Java, it uses their own Java called "Dalvik" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_(software)

Note that Dalvik is essentially just an alternate stack-based virtual machine for bytecode that's been converted from the standard stack-based JVM bytecode. You still need a standard Java SDK to develop Android applications in order to compile the Java source code to JVM bytecode. So far Google has been able to get the best of both worlds by leveraging the vast Java tools ecosystem but then in the final step they con…

I don't know why Dalvik exists.

The JVM is GPL'd, you don't have to pay license fees to use.

There are other Apache licensed JVM's (http://harmony.apache.org/).

If this lawsuit drives people towards the Newspeak and V8 VM that would be a good thing.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#323

Post by artsrc »

tingley wrote: post #312
tocomment wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't trying to make a joke. I figured Google would have a very high market valuation compared to IBM. But my point still stands, why can't Google buy a company that owns some patents that Oracle is currently infringing on?

It's quite possible that Google already owns some. We will find out when and if they find a counter-suit. Counterclaims of patent infringement are a standard tactic. I assume Oracle is angling for a settlement here. I can't imagine they want to make Android apps not be written in Java, they just want a piece.

I think the V8 technology in Chrome is based on much older Smalltalk VM technology that Google bought. Given that everything in software violates software patents, I think it is reasonable to assume that Java does.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#324

Post by jobby »

gojomo wrote: post #39

What an excellent occasion to try the homoglyph hoax attack on friends and enemies! (See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1571984 .) http://www.google.com/search?q=οraclе Your search - οraclе - did not match any documents.

How prescient:

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/08/14/coincidence

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#325

Post by nivertech »

joeyh wrote: post #274
dstein wrote: post #264

Oracle is sending a very clear message every programmer, young and old. "If you use Java to make something valuable, we're gonna sue the crap out of you". This will have long term consequences for Oracle.

"Java: Write once, run anywhere, be sued by Oracle"

"Java: Write once, run anywhere and hide from Oracle"

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#327

Post by binaryfinery »

KirinDave wrote: post #141
binaryfinery wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I'm pretty sure they aren't. The CLR is totally different to the JVM.

Read. The. Claim. And no, the CLR is not totally different from the JVM.

You've not looked at them have you (the VMs)? The JVM is entirely a class-focused JVM. The CLR is a general purpose VM. I can access arbitrary memory in the CLR, but cannot on the JVM. I write as someone who has attempted to build a byte-code assembly file that would allow direct manipulation of binary arrays for the purpose of efficiently loading OpenGL vertex buffers that mix floats and ints. Cant be done in Java or in Dalvik (at least in 2.1). Easily done in CLR. Also, the handling of security and exceptions is different. I've also read all the JSRs with respect to this problem, related problems, generics, stack-based variables etc, and I'm also aware of the optimizations for stack-based elimination in 1.6 and 1.7.

Also, I admit I only read the first patent, but I believe it doesn't apply to Android simply because the Dalvik VM does not apply its security at the object level but the process level, thereby nuking the patent. As for mono, I doubt they would worry since they would simply point out that "class" and "object" have been used for determining security access since at least Windows NT. Or mono can simply turn off object level security and rely on the OS to do it. The whole list is replete with holes and workarounds.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#328

Post by binaryfinery »

recoil wrote: post #118
binaryfinery wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I'm pretty sure they aren't. The CLR is totally different to the JVM.

Google aren't using the JVM either, they're using the Dalvik VM. The alleged patent infringement may apply to just about any VM implementation.

I know. I also hope they are using process level security, not class level security, which will completely bypass patent #1. Google people aren't stupid.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#329

Post by binaryfinery »

franksalim wrote: post #108
binaryfinery wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I'm pretty sure they aren't. The CLR is totally different to the JVM.

I would say it is about as different as Dalvik is.

In some ways the Dalvik VM is more different. Its register based for a start.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#330

Post by binaryfinery »

binaryfinery wrote: post #74
KirinDave wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the Mono people are worried. These patents are things that are fairly fundamental and important to any sort of mobile device that has competent security.

No I'm pretty sure they aren't. The CLR is totally different to the JVM.

And in evidence for the "Pretty Sure They Aren't" statement, here's Miguel de Icaza shitting his pants (not):

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Aug-13.html

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