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Shanghai sets population at 25M

theguardian.com

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Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#201

Post by anthonyleecook »

landryraccoon wrote: post #196
anthonyleecook wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, I've seen many dead bodies in shanghai, lying out on the streets for everyone to see. One of the most memorable one is there was a guy laying face down lifeless, his legs covered in gangrene, about a block away from a busy metro station construction. He must have been there for days .

Really? What year was it and what neighborhood? I admit this is anecdotal but I’ve been to Shanghai several times and never seen any dead bodies in the streets? China has some huge social problems and I did see some homeless people and beggars but no bodies.

Pudong, 2013.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#202

Post by dreamdu5t »

ghettoimp wrote: post #186
dreamdu5t wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the solutions chosen to make cities a better place, closed borders and immigration quotas are descrimination. People should be treated equally.

Why should all people be treated equally? Shouldn't a community have a right to set its own goals and standards? Shouldn't it have a right to decide how to balance the needs of its own people with the needs of its neighbors? Anecdotally, tens of thousands of people have been moving to my city every year for over a decade. The rents have increased dramatically, forcing many out of their homes. Traffic is horrible. A f…

People should be treated equally because it’s the compassionate and the right thing to do. I assume you want to be treated equally as well? Regarding the problems you attribute to people simply moving to the area you live in, those problems can be dealt with in ways that don’t exclude others. They also aren’t your problems, but problems shared by everyone including the people who recently moved there.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#203

Post by Markoff »

volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

you really are ignorant if you think "Hutongs, which are slum like buildings", hutongs are oldest parts of Beijing with traditional architecture, narrow streets, often still missing infrastructure/plumbing, but in no way have anything in common with slum, it's one of the oldest residential areas of Beijing which are being destroyed, while they should be preserved as heritage

i guess just because smething it's cramped and small you would say also to residents of Tokyo and Hongkong they are living in slums

the poorest people in Beijing definitely don't live in hutongs, which is nowadays quite hipster area to live, because it's extremely central, the poorest people live in basemenets/nuclear shelters where they have one room basically without outside wall (once or twice I went to basement of my 25fl modern building as well to find out we have there these "rat" people) or they live far far away in suburbs basically in villages which may look like slums

but calling hutongs slum like buildings shows extreme ignorance, I guess you would then call half of Europan historical capitals with narrow streets also slum like

and you can't really compare India and China, it's two different worlds, I was in richest areas of Mumbai and could still easily children sleeping on sidewalk just on cardboard, can't see such thing almost in any Chinese city, China is economically and pretty much in any field miles ahead India which is decades behind

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#204

Post by kurthr »

sammyjiang wrote: post #141
volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

I wonder how many days have ever stay in beijing? As one grew up in Beijing and lived for 26 years, I can definitely say that comparing Hutong to Indian slum is really really ignorant. You can ask anyone in Beijing, they will tell you that many people live in Hutong is one group of the richest people in Beijing. Nearly all people live in Hutong are Beijing natives, and their houses inside the hutong are called "sihey…

There are definitely some VERY nice areas with Hutongs (near the Forbidden City!), but I've (accidentally inside the second ring) seen some which appeared very run down (leaky roofs, open sewers, kids not in school). I actually see your point that real estate pricing is so high (and the subway is getting so much better) that it's strange for there to be such slums. My best bet is that the government can't tear them down due to historical local pressure, but nobody except rural immigrants (who can't afford to fix them, or send their kids to school) live out a bleak existence in them (still making more than their family does back home). Even college students live in basements that are pretty horrifying. My guess is that the land value appreciation doesn't go to them.

I remember only 20 years ago and all of Beijing seemed to be Hutong... with the ubiquitous locked gates that seemed a fire hazard to me. It's no wonder that from being so common some have become much nicer and some much less so, while most have fallen to the wrecking ball.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#205

Post by sampo »

kkarakk wrote: post #174
sammyjiang wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many days have ever stay in beijing? As one grew up in Beijing and lived for 26 years, I can definitely say that comparing Hutong to Indian slum is really really ignorant. You can ask anyone in Beijing, they will tell you that many people live in Hutong is one group of the richest people in Beijing. Nearly all people live in Hutong are Beijing natives, and their houses inside the hutong are called "sihey…

i understand being upset at being included in a standard that is by any definition upsetting but just because the value increases doesn't mean it's not a slum fyi there are places in mumbai too w/ astonishing market values and disgusting living conditions

> there are places in mumbai too w/ astonishing market values and disgusting living conditions

Also in San Francisco

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#206

Post by Markoff »

peteretep wrote: post #47
ksec wrote: post #27

Because they have learned their lesson with Hong Kong when they cant really control property market and what problems it leads to.

What problems does it lead to in Hong Kong? I'd have thought Hong Kong is one of the most livable cities in China

except Hong Kong is not in China, but in Hong Kong, might as well compare it with Japan or Taiwan

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#207

Post by Markoff »

Cookingboy wrote: post #40
wonderous wrote: post #20

China’s policies are confusing, first they wanted to move everyone to the major cities, now the cities are saying they will cap the populations. Anyone know what is going on?

That's not true, China does not want to move people into major cities, that's why they have the "Hukou" system, which is a residency registration. What they want is urbanization of the less developed areas, many of which were farmlands from before.

yeah, that's why they plan to give pretty much half of the migrant workers urban hukou

https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/chinas-plan-for-orderly-huko...

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#208

Post by dlwdlw »

volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

I doubt the people in slums appreciate this type of pity. Slums have vibrant and complex economies, just at lower denominations. Basic necessities can be met in all sorts of ways but people born in rich countries have distorted notions of basic and can end up forcing "luxuries" upon people. Luxuries that cannot be afforded and so actually destroy economic activity and the ability to work and strive.

Americans are especially prone to this as the current generations are so far removed from the realities of the world. Economically it is impossible for everyone in the world to live like middle-class America but because of their compassion (guilt) when facing actual market conditions, react by trying to hide ignore or outlaw slum economies.

This is the road to hell being paved with good intentions. I am also prone to this as despite being incredibly welathy relative to the world as a bay area software engineer I still feel like something is "missing" and am striving for something. This desire, which drives my life, is disrupted when I see things like slums. The self-interested striving can only be justified is I am a striver than someone who has a certain responsibility to the world.

Smart people considering others "dumb" instead of the self smart also dodges this responsibility so that the individual can self-indulgent ly pursue interests rather than teach and not be appreciated.

I suspect culturally and biologically we renomalize so quickly so that there is always something better for tomorrow so that we have a reason to live for today.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#209

Post by mr_spothawk »

bagacrap wrote: post #191
mr_spothawk wrote: post #183

Isn't Shanghai an "autonomous" region? I wonder how much this has to do with preventing Shanghai from becoming larger than Beijing.

Probably nothing given that the article states Beijing has an even lower target population cap.

that's what I get for not reading

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#210

Post by [deleted] »

dlwdlw wrote: post #208
volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

I doubt the people in slums appreciate this type of pity. Slums have vibrant and complex economies, just at lower denominations. Basic necessities can be met in all sorts of ways but people born in rich countries have distorted notions of basic and can end up forcing "luxuries" upon people. Luxuries that cannot be afforded and so actually destroy economic activity and the ability to work and strive. Americans are esp…

[deleted]
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