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Shanghai sets population at 25M

theguardian.com

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Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#51

Post by volgo »

wonderous wrote: post #20

China’s policies are confusing, first they wanted to move everyone to the major cities, now the cities are saying they will cap the populations. Anyone know what is going on?

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions like this. This is very common in SE Asia as well if you look at cities like Manila, Jakarta, etc. It's a tried and failed approach to have "open migration" policies in developing countries and have labor conditions race to the bottom.

To a lesser extend, Beijing + Shanghai has this problem as well. I was in BJ 7 years ago (so my experience may be outdated), but there are parts of the old city that still has Hutongs, which are slum like buildings that have largely been vacated but migrant workers have "illegally" occupied. (I put "illegal" in quotes because human beings aspiring for shelter shouldn't be illegal, anyways, off point)

The root of the problem is migrant workers moving into cities for slave-like labor and are commonly exploited by local residents and employers. They're offered "jobs" that are way below the legal minimum wage and are often paid under the table. They can't say no because their employers have power over them (threat to report to police, etc). In many sense, "illegal" migrant workers are not that different from "illegal" immigrants.

In order to raise the living standards of an entire area, you have to enforce issues like safe labor practice, minimum wage, vacation days, etc. Without heavy hand regulation in a developing countries, these things don't magically come at the kindness of employers. They must be forced. The developed countries all went through this stage much earlier this century (think back on all the activists who died pushing for labor rights in U.S. in early 1900s). When you have a massive population of people who are in dire situations and who don't have anywhere to turn, it's difficult to force employers to raise working standards.

It's a difficult issue. On one hand, it's pretty heavy handed and inhuman to tell a migrant worker they're not allowed to live in a city that's part of their own damn country. On the other hand, we don't want cities to race to the bottom with unsanitary and slum like conditions. What's the balance? I've no idea, but I'm glad Shanghai at least understands this is a problem instead of copying other Asian cities that have failed at this

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#52

Post by chillydawg »

iagooar wrote: post #50
peteretep wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London has a green belt -- an area of land around it which is legally protected. This makes the cost of living in London prohibitive, and limits growth.

What does "legally protected" mean in this context? What makes that land different? Genuinely curious.

It means planning permission is very rarely granted for new buildings and usually only in exceptional circumstances or when it is a public facility. Planning law in the UK has special protections for areas designated as green belt.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#54

Post by TeMPOraL »

adventured wrote: post #28
VeejayRampay wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you seriously think politicians in the "West" (whatever that means) are not corrupt? Have you followed the news in the past say 20 years?

You're setting up a fake strawman that the parent comment never suggested at all. In no regard did the parent say that politicians in the West are not or are never corrupt, nor did they imply it. They said China's government is corrupt to the core.

And couldn't the same be said about US government? Or France government? Or any other Western government?

How is it that China is obviously "corrupt to the core", but our governments are not? Pretty much daily reports in the news about corruption in western democracies - they all don't count, I assume, because what we have here is not True Corruption?

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#55

Post by walrus1066 »

peteretep wrote: post #45
inertial wrote: post #36

Genuinely curious : What's a good alternative to setting a population limit per city ? Having lived in cities that are crumbling under poor infrastructure, unchecked growth, excessive pollution (from vehicles, stuck in endless traffic jams), shortage of water/electricity, I wonder what can be done to fix this. Everyone from across the country wants to migrate to a few big cities that provide good employment. We shoul…

London has a green belt -- an area of land around it which is legally protected. This makes the cost of living in London prohibitive, and limits growth.

Not sure how much it limits growth, people just cram into ever smaller living spaces, or commute in from towns further away.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#56

Post by cornholio »

peteretep wrote: post #47
ksec wrote: post #27

Because they have learned their lesson with Hong Kong when they cant really control property market and what problems it leads to.

What problems does it lead to in Hong Kong? I'd have thought Hong Kong is one of the most livable cities in China

> Hong Kong is one of the most livable cities in China

If you don't live in the rooftop slums or cage homes, that is. Hong Kong is also one of the most expensive cities in the world.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#57

Post by dis-sys »

peteretep wrote: post #47
ksec wrote: post #27

Because they have learned their lesson with Hong Kong when they cant really control property market and what problems it leads to.

What problems does it lead to in Hong Kong? I'd have thought Hong Kong is one of the most livable cities in China

until you need to buy an apartment from those criminal developers.

check news, they are selling apartments smaller than a prison cell to new home buyers. this happened when 90% of usable land are intentionally assigned as parks to limit land supply to the market.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#58

Post by volgo »

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions like this. This is very common in SE Asia as well if you look at cities like Manila, Jakarta, etc. It's a tried and failed approach to have "open migration" policies in developing countries and have labor conditions race to the bottom. To a lesser extend, Beijing + Shanghai has this problem as well. I was in BJ 7 years ago (so my experience may be outdated), but there are parts of the old city that still has Hutongs, which are slum like buildings that have largely been vacated but migrant workers have "illegally" occupied. (I put "illegal" in quotes because human beings aspiring for shelter shouldn't be illegal, anyways, off point)

The root of the problem is migrant workers moving into cities for slave-like labor and are commonly exploited by local residents and employers. They're offered "jobs" that are way below the legal minimum wage and are often paid under the table. They can't say no because their employers have power over them (threat to report to police, etc). In many sense, "illegal" migrant workers are not that different from "illegal" immigrants.

In order to raise the living standards of an entire area, you have to enforce issues like safe labor practice, minimum wage, vacation days, etc. Without heavy hand regulation in a developing countries, these things don't magically come at the kindness of employers. They must be forced. The developed countries all went through this stage much earlier this century (think back on all the activists who died pushing for labor rights in U.S. in early 1900s). When you have a massive population of people who are in dire situations and who don't have anywhere to turn, it's difficult to force employers to raise working standards.

It's a difficult issue. On one hand, it's pretty heavy handed and inhuman to tell a migrant worker they're not allowed to live in a city that's part of their own damn country. On the other hand, we don't want cities to race to the bottom with unsanitary and slum like conditions. What's the balance? I've no idea, but I'm glad Shanghai at least understands this is a problem instead of copying other Asian cities that have failed at this

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#59

Post by dis-sys »

vsc wrote: post #48

How did western countries deal with this kind of problem? Or they havent faced anything of such scale till now?

Shanghai had 13 million in 2004 when I left, moved back last year and there is now 23-24 million people. I can't really name any western city that saw a population increase of 10 million in 13 years.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#60

Post by codeisawesome »

volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

Is there evidence that capping residents “cures” cities of Slums?
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