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Shanghai sets population at 25M

theguardian.com

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Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#111

Post by jsjohnst »

ttflee wrote: post #89
volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

Even if the migrant workers were exploited by local residents and employers, they were still better-off than they could gain in their rural home. I worked in Beijing for more than three years without registering any residential permit, renting a shabby apartment, which is built and owned by the locals, in the village to the north of the city area. Such apartments were cheap compared with the roaring rental and estate…

> Even if the migrant workers were exploited by local residents and employers, they were still better-off than they could gain in their rural home.

I’m hopeful you didn’t intentionally imply slavery was a good thing, but that’s essentially what you wrote.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#112

Post by nawitus »

jakubp wrote: post #41
nawitus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as people are migrating, people are voting with their wallets that a city "crumbling under poor infrastructure" etc. is better than whatever place they're migrating from.

But people already in that city can't vote with their wallets to stop the immigration.

They can vote by moving to another place?

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#113

Post by walterbell »

If “excess” people are moved to a second-tier city X miles away, what happens when that city is full - create a third-tier city Y miles away? Will there be a separate transportation network between first-tier cities? Permits/visas to travel between city-states?

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#114

Post by anthonyleecook »

volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

China is still a relatively poor country (1). I lived in Shanghai for a few years back, and even if you just go into the side streets a few blocks from the richest area in Shanghai (Pudong, Huangpu), you can see slums and sometimes dead people lying in the streets with no assistance. And if you go 10 minutes out of the richest areas, you have people living in hutongs and communist-style buildings with low level life qualities.

The problem is that these immigrants will never be able to become a first-tier city citizen, due to hukou. The government is trying to move these people into empty buildings in second tiered cities, but there are no jobs there. (thus alot of these migrants actually moved back to the farms last I heard)

1.) Statistica says that in 2016, China rural households only made about $1000/year. and urban households only made about $3000/year. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/259451/annual-per-capita...)

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#115

Post by illuminati1911 »

jsjohnst wrote: post #111
ttflee wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the migrant workers were exploited by local residents and employers, they were still better-off than they could gain in their rural home. I worked in Beijing for more than three years without registering any residential permit, renting a shabby apartment, which is built and owned by the locals, in the village to the north of the city area. Such apartments were cheap compared with the roaring rental and estate…

> Even if the migrant workers were exploited by local residents and employers, they were still better-off than they could gain in their rural home. I’m hopeful you didn’t intentionally imply slavery was a good thing, but that’s essentially what you wrote.

BS. He didn’t write a word about slavery nor that it would be a good thing.

You need to recalibrate your Bernie Sanders radar.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#116

Post by baybal2 »

ttflee wrote: post #89
volgo wrote: post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

Even if the migrant workers were exploited by local residents and employers, they were still better-off than they could gain in their rural home. I worked in Beijing for more than three years without registering any residential permit, renting a shabby apartment, which is built and owned by the locals, in the village to the north of the city area. Such apartments were cheap compared with the roaring rental and estate…

>It is not even the fault of the Beijing local residents be to blame for the tragedy today. The cream of economy development was either intentionally or unintentionally hoarded in the metropolises while the second tiers cities never get the chance. People have to migrate and follow the money.

Here is my observation based on my experience as a person who was frequently visiting Shenzhen over the last 10 years.

Shenzhen usually deals with "undesirables" much smarter:

1. Moped taxis - Shenzhen was one of first Chinese cities that made taxi - a taxi business. The moment proper taxi rides became available to general population, moped taxis vanished. Although motorcycles are outlawed in Shenzhen, most people running moped taxis were relying on police being reluctant to chase all and every of them. The moment an economic incentive vanished, so they did too.

2. Street food - mostly vanished when the city started to get more zealous on food safety inspections. When citizens were made to understand that a food safety license in a cafe is more than a piece of paper, they began voting with their valets by choosing food safety attested eateries.

3. Garbage scavengers - vanished without a trace once the city kickstarted legal recycling businesses with minimal subsidies.

4. Garage factories - killed by ferric chloride and other chemical detectors in city savage.

and the list goes on.

Beijing usually goes simply - we don't like you, firing squads will come this afternoon.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#117

Post by seanmcdirmid »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #104
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not binary! China is more corrupt than western countries, even if the west stil has corruption. The west has frequent reports about corruption because the media is separate from the government as well as separation of power, nothing can be papered over even if Donald Trump wants to silence it. In china, only corruption is reported on from official direction, the press can’t act independently. There are plenty of…

Of course it's not binary. What I'm suggesting is that differences in corruption may be small between all those countries (note that we can't just count everything that China does that's undemocratic as corruption, because China is not a democracy).

China simply doesn’t have very strong rule of law, so the notion of illegal isn’t meaningful. What is deemed corruption is up to official discretion, and so you’ll be “made an example” if you step out of line; likewise, if you are too clean, you won’t get promoted because you can’t be controlled like this. There is no independent judicial system, no separation of power to carry out independent prosecutions, no independent media to do investigative reporting independently to cause public outrage (and when they do by accident, the punishments are severe). You are either safe or you aren’t as china has basically rejected rule of law (and constitutional law) as a western imperialistic concept.

This has nothing to do with democracy. Singapore is relatively undemocratic (opposition parties are slapped with libel suits on a regular basis) but lacks significant corruption as they have very strong rule of law (the Lees are benevolent tyrants).

Saying corruption in china is similar to corruption in the states is like saying their air pollution is similar.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#119

Post by cycrutchfield »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #101
cycrutchfield wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that because we do not hear about corruption in state-controlled media in countries like China and Russia, but we do hear about corruption in countries like the US or France, is evidence that Western corruption is more rampant than elsewhere?

I'm saying that nowhere in this thread there is proof suggesting that Western corruption is meaningfully smaller, and not just different in phenotype but functionally still in the same ballpark as Chinese corruption.

I appreciate the equivalency, but that is markedly untrue by any objective measure.
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