Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes • Hacker News Board

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#71

Post by notyourday » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #49

dmitrygr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is important, but I'm going to stop you right there. #1 is solved by more money. Want me to work in a team that mocks my work? $100k extra will do it #2 is solved by more money. Want me to work with dirtbags? $100k #3 is solved by more money. Want me to wear a "super junior nobody" title? As long as you're up front about it, $100k. #4 is solved by money. My overtime rate is 2x normal rate You know why? Money bu…

> If you think that more money doesn't motivate you, either you've never been paid enough Or you have; there's significant evidence that behind a certain level, additional income doesn't actually provide additional improvement in most measures of satisfaction and subjective quality of life (IIRC, some studied in the 1990s showed this on average at somewhere around $250,000 in then-current dollars in the US.) Once you…

When the FRC backed startups start paying developers $250k a year, we can have that conversation. Alas, the argument is that they should go work for them for $100k because of all those extra perks that in a $$ terms cost about 30k/year.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#72

Post by CydeWeys » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:31 PM UTC

jcadam wrote: post #8

notyourday wrote: post #2

So. Much. B.S. There is only one thing that people who have not been dropped on a head interested in. It is called money . Money buys them stuff. Money lets them have a nice roof over their head. Money lets their family not worry about a slum in the economy. Everything else is secondary. Here's a magic formula: MaxMoney(Min(work)) 402 "PAY_ME_MORE_MONEY" P.S. That's why it is called a job and not hobby or volunteerin…

Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. Off the top of my head: 1) Respect. By that I mean professional respect - I want to feel that my contributions are valued and that people recognize my talents :) 2) Team. Working with dirtbags is miserable no matter how much you get…

A lot of these are independent from salary, however, and usually uncorrelated. I pretty have all of these at my current job, certainly the best I've ever had at any job (and I'd throw in a #5: Perks). And my current job, at a Big 4, also happens to pay by far the most of any job I've ever had too.

I would certainly never sacrifice any of these for a minor bump in pay, but oftentimes you don't have to sacrifice any of them even for a major bump in pay.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#73

Post by notyourday » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:31 PM UTC

jcadam wrote: post #61

dmitrygr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can. Yes. Go to your boss. Ask to be paid 60% of your current salary to work M-W. I'm sure you'll get a yes.

I'm sure he'll laugh in my face.

That means you are not making enough money.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#74

Post by notyourday » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #40

jcadam wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. Off the top of my head: 1) Respect. By that I mean professional respect - I want to feel that my contributions are valued and that people recognize my talents :) 2) Team. Working with dirtbags is miserable no matter how much you get…

I don’t know, $750k per year would put all of those concerns to rest for me. I don’t care about respect when I’m sitting on a boat off the coast of Nice. “Comfortable” for me means having the option to not work.

And that's how it works in finance. You are hired to do a job. For boat load of money. When that job is done, you are fired. And no one cares because working 3 years for guaranteed $800k/year + $500k bonus that you will probably get is worth being fired on a 3 year + 1 day anniversary.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#75

Post by notyourday » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:35 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #13

notyourday wrote: post #2

So. Much. B.S. There is only one thing that people who have not been dropped on a head interested in. It is called money . Money buys them stuff. Money lets them have a nice roof over their head. Money lets their family not worry about a slum in the economy. Everything else is secondary. Here's a magic formula: MaxMoney(Min(work)) 402 "PAY_ME_MORE_MONEY" P.S. That's why it is called a job and not hobby or volunteerin…

There is only one thing that people who have not been dropped on a head interested in. It is called money. That's not true for everyone. I've taken $20k less salary to work on technologies that were more interesting. Money is just one dimension and one can be strategic about it. People can have other priorities besides money. Salary is important but it's not the only priority nor is it always the most important prior…

> That's not true for everyone. I've taken $20k less salary to work on technologies that were more interesting. Money is just one dimension and one can be strategic about it.

They either dropped you on a head or you are that young and naive person FRC needs.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#76

Post by notyourday » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

kemiller2002 wrote: post #42

virgilp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While undoubtedly true, I'm speculating this can in fact be translated to money. You've turned down 50k$/y, say. Would you have turned down an extra 100k? 200k? 500k? I bet at some point you would've said "fuck it, yes I'll take the job despite conditions". But yes, eventually it's just cheaper to create the better working conditions than to pay everybody the extra money :)

For some people you are correct. They will not turn down more money. After a certain point in your career you realize that money does not buy happiness, and it certainly does not buy you more time. As people get older and have families etc., people begin to realize that going home at a reasonable hour is much more important than extra money.

> As people get older and have families etc., people begin to realize that going home at a reasonable hour is much more important than extra money.

As people get older and have a family they start realizing that they were morons when in their twenties and thirties they did anything other than get boatload of extra money because when you are old, it is money that is needed to optimize time.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#77

Post by CydeWeys » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #49

dmitrygr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is important, but I'm going to stop you right there. #1 is solved by more money. Want me to work in a team that mocks my work? $100k extra will do it #2 is solved by more money. Want me to work with dirtbags? $100k #3 is solved by more money. Want me to wear a "super junior nobody" title? As long as you're up front about it, $100k. #4 is solved by money. My overtime rate is 2x normal rate You know why? Money bu…

> If you think that more money doesn't motivate you, either you've never been paid enough Or you have; there's significant evidence that behind a certain level, additional income doesn't actually provide additional improvement in most measures of satisfaction and subjective quality of life (IIRC, some studied in the 1990s showed this on average at somewhere around $250,000 in then-current dollars in the US.) Once you…

It is certainly true that money has diminishing returns. Think of it as an asymptotic function approaching a maximum level of happiness as income tends towards infinity.

However, it's also important to take into account the cost of living. That $400K/year figure (accounting for inflation), which marks something like 90% of the way up the asymptotic curve, is an average across the US. But if you're living in very expensive parts of the country, you need a good deal more than that in order to be able to afford a nice house, with separate bedrooms for all of the children that you (would like to) have, with a short commute, and then a bunch more in the way for child care, college tuition, maybe private school, extracurricular activities, and a whole host of others if you have those children.

To give you an anecdote, I know a guy who's making $500K/year and has all of those expenses, except he does not live in the city, and he's barely treading water. He's experiencing significant financial stress that more money would be a solution to. And this is at $500K/year, which is not quite enough to support his lifestyle.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#78

Post by maxxxxx » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #72

jcadam wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. Off the top of my head: 1) Respect. By that I mean professional respect - I want to feel that my contributions are valued and that people recognize my talents :) 2) Team. Working with dirtbags is miserable no matter how much you get…

A lot of these are independent from salary, however, and usually uncorrelated. I pretty have all of these at my current job, certainly the best I've ever had at any job (and I'd throw in a #5: Perks). And my current job, at a Big 4, also happens to pay by far the most of any job I've ever had too. I would certainly never sacrifice any of these for a minor bump in pay, but oftentimes you don't have to sacrifice any of…

Most people have this idea that either you get paid less and have a good job environment or you are highly paid in a bad environment. From my experience it's the opposite. Companies that pay well also have a good environment.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#79

Post by jasode » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #75

jasode wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only one thing that people who have not been dropped on a head interested in. It is called money. That's not true for everyone. I've taken $20k less salary to work on technologies that were more interesting. Money is just one dimension and one can be strategic about it. People can have other priorities besides money. Salary is important but it's not the only priority nor is it always the most important prior…

> That's not true for everyone. I've taken $20k less salary to work on technologies that were more interesting. Money is just one dimension and one can be strategic about it. They either dropped you on a head or you are that young and naive person FRC needs.

Your desire to insult falls flat because it was my young and naive 20s when I was at my peak powers of being a mercenary and prostitute for money. Prioritizing money above all else was wrong for me -- but I'm not saying it's wrong for others.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#80

Post by kalimeh » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #2

So. Much. B.S. There is only one thing that people who have not been dropped on a head interested in. It is called money . Money buys them stuff. Money lets them have a nice roof over their head. Money lets their family not worry about a slum in the economy. Everything else is secondary. Here's a magic formula: MaxMoney(Min(work)) 402 "PAY_ME_MORE_MONEY" P.S. That's why it is called a job and not hobby or volunteerin…

I am in management at a company that pays top quartile salaries and I concentrate on exactly the sort of selling that the FRC article talks about.

Geat candidates get multiple offers, so I want my offer to be money plus valued intangibles, while my competitors just offer money. That way they have to outbid me to get the candidate; whereas I just have to _match_ them to win.