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Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

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Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#101

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

jcadam wrote: post #99
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're able to get a salary of 100k, then you're that top 5% or 10% that I mentioned _might_ be able to do well in a hot market. There are lots of people who aren't so lucky and don't have that opportunity.

$100k isn't a particularly high salary for a software engineer in the US these days. Even in lower COL areas.

If you honestly believe this, then you are living a very privileged life. Be happy about that, because it is very lucky.

Those salaries _can_ be found in other areas of the country, but they are almost completely concentrated to tech hubs of the country. Lots of cities throughout the country don't have these jobs.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#102

Post by ryanwaggoner »

makotech222 wrote: post #94
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah...I see now. Socialism has failed miserably everywhere it’s been tried, but that’s not socialism’s fault! It’s capitalism’s fault! The big bad capitalists ruined it by meddling! If only socialists could be left alone, they’d finally be able to create paradise. I’m straw-manning here, but only a bit. Not only is this cliche defense of socialism not logical or accurate, it’s impractical. So you need a world without…

Liberalism went through the same period. Ever hear of the french revolution? Then the Napoleonic wars? The same is and will happen with socialism. The status quo benefits a select few people (Monarchy, at the time), who will do their damndest to keep it that way. Eventually, enough people will rise up and make change happen.

You may be right about things eventually changing, but I think it'll be due to post-scarcity due to technological progress, not because people will rise up.

What you're definitely wrong about is that the current status quo benefits a select few. It's not equally distributed (although neither would socialism be), but almost everyone on earth today is much better off today than they would have been without capitalism, liberalism, etc.

But I'm tired of providing examples of why, especially when the alternative being offered is a theoretical utopia that's basically a more extreme version of some of the most cruel and deadly regimes earth has ever known.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#103

Post by jcadam »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #101
jcadam wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$100k isn't a particularly high salary for a software engineer in the US these days. Even in lower COL areas.

If you honestly believe this, then you are living a very privileged life. Be happy about that, because it is very lucky. Those salaries _can_ be found in other areas of the country, but they are almost completely concentrated to tech hubs of the country. Lots of cities throughout the country don't have these jobs.

I don't live in a tech hub. The only place I've lived that was close was Northern Virginia (for only two years) and I hated it so much I moved to Florida.

I graduated from a fairly average state university with a BSCS in 2002 and joined the Army. My first software engineering job (which was hard to land given I had gone 4 years since college doing something completely different) paid $55k in 2006. I crossed the $100k threshold in 2012.

Though, I'll admit the raises haven't been as generous the last few years, and I did have to move a few times for jobs :)

But I really don't think my life has been particularly privileged or out of the ordinary for a reasonably competent developer (and many here on HN who do live in tech hubs make quite a bit more than I).

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#104

Post by beckler »

liquidcool wrote: post #72

You mention a couple times that your work has a significant impact on the company's sales/revenue. If you can actually quantify the value of your work, you are in a much stronger negotiating position with your employer and others. It is rarely done by engineers and sets you apart. In addition to fair compensation, you mention "stressing over issues." I've noticed more than once that I've been stressed over problems m…

I believe there is a reason why it's rarely done by engineers, and that is because most management types view engineers as easily replaceable. Asking for a raise can put a target on your back when things get tight.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#105

Post by jaredklewis »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #96
jaredklewis wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there is obviously some risk, in my experience it is very well compensated. If anything, I think an irrational level risk aversion means there are basically not enough good freelancers to go around and the demand/pay is high. The standard formula I recommend to a new freelancer is (what-you-would-make-as-salary / 50 / 5 / 8 * 2) = hourly rate. Anything less is undercharging. So if you would make 100k in salary,…

If you're able to get a salary of 100k, then you're that top 5% or 10% that I mentioned _might_ be able to do well in a hot market. There are lots of people who aren't so lucky and don't have that opportunity.

Sure, I gave 100k as an example. But I think the same principle applies more generally. It is perfectly possible to run a freelance business charging $50/hour, just expect that your total annual take-home (after health, sales work, accountants, and so on) to be in the $50k range. As for being in a hot market, well this is hacker news and programming is a very hot market right now.

I think a lot of people have a mistaken impression that freelancing is hard to pull off. In my experience, landing a contracting gig at a big hourly rate takes roughly the same amount of effort as it takes to interview and land a full time job. If you can land a full time job, you can probably freelance.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#106

Post by ryanwaggoner »

makotech222 wrote: post #92
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm perfectly fine with some people ending up with undeserved wealth if it comes along with higher prosperity for everyone. Capitalist-leaning systems have an unbelievable track record in this regard, while socialist utopias all seem to wither and die, usually while impoverishing, starving, and murdering millions in the process. To be clear, I'm not talking about social democracy, and I'm not talking about more mixed…

Higher prosperity for everyone? Who are you talking about? I'm pretty sure the bottom 95% of capitalist countries are in complete poverty.

In 1820, the vast majority of people lived in extreme poverty and only a tiny elite enjoyed higher standards of living. Economic growth over the last 200 years completely transformed our world, with poverty falling continuously over the last two centuries. This is even more remarkable when we consider that the population increased 7-fold over the same time. In a world without economic growth, an increase in the population would result in less and less income for everyone. A 7-fold increase in the world population would be potentially enough to drive everyone into extreme poverty. Yet, the exact opposite happened. In a time of unprecedented population growth, we managed to lift more and more people out of poverty.

...

In 1990, there were 2 billion people living in extreme poverty. With a reduction to 705 million in 2015, this means that on average, every day in the 25 years between 1990 and 2015, 137,000 fewer people were living in extreme poverty.

Socialism didn't do that. Capitalism and liberalism did.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty/

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#107

Post by ryanwaggoner »

makotech222 wrote: post #100
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare global poverty (especially in developing economies) today to 50 years ago and tell me again about the dystopia the average human is living in because of capitalism. If I was going to be reborn in a random country, I’d sure rather it be in 2017 than 1967, and I feel optimistic that 2067 will be much better still.

Sure here's the comparison data: http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-sta... And my favorite part: "For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years [of the current form of globalization, from 1980 - 2000] have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades [1960 - 1980]. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equ…

Doesn't seem like the highest-quality source and I'm pretty skeptical of their conclusions, but regardless:

Your TLDR doesn't make much sense. So we're making less progress for the last 20 years (but still making progress) therefore capitalism is unsustainable and we should replace it with the same tired system that's been tried over and over again for the last century without even a hint of success?

OK.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#108

Post by candiodari »

makotech222 wrote: post #76
rjett wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owner of a business here... I'm 6 years into owning my own business and things have grown year over year for the company and we are doing quite well. In theory, the democratization of the workplace is a nice idea, and I initially tried to build my business around this idea. But over my time running things, I've realized that hierarchy is necessary, especially when things start to scale up. One of the biggest things I…

Democratization of work doesn't mean zero hierarchy. It means the workers get to choose how their labor value is used. It is perfectly acceptable for a majority of a company to decide to elect a CEO and form a capitalist-style company, but it is important that it is their choice to do so! And of course, they would still retain their right to revoke such a hierarchy.

Socialists have a particular hate for voluntary leftist organizations that allow choice, and then have the workers choose individualization, mostly because that's exactly what open communes keep doing, and it destroys them.

For a good example, see the evolution of the Kibbutzim system in Israel and what sort of image Israel has today in leftist circles (and the image and reputation Kibbutzim have in Israel's own considerable leftist parties). You will see that leftists cannot deal with individual choices and, also, that allowing individualized choices will destroy any leftist society. Therefore, they cannot be voluntary.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#109

Post by amiuba »

jressey wrote: post #26
gesman wrote: post #2

Your words: "hate", "resent", "stressing", "hard time", etc... Change you thinking pattern, start thinking about what you love. What do you love to do? Then start doing it. "Love" is a key. You can start right now.

While I agree with this, it's really only easy to recognize this after you've figured it out. I also want to emphasize I'm in a position now with equity do not adhere to the philosophy below. Focus on enjoying the people you work with and spend less energy thinking about your work. Stressing over work is a fool's game unless you have skin in it. I had a pretty low point in my career and I simply changed my focus to c…

> changed my focus to collecting as much money from the wealthy bosses as I could while providing as little value as I could.

I thought about this and tried it this past year. It didn't go well and my performance review was abysmal. Some of my colleagues hate my guts because they feel like they're doing all the work and I'm not.

For example, I never do overtime especially when it's to meet unrealistic arbitrary deadlines. But they do and we meet the deadline, and this is why we keep having those deadlines: management knows they can keep doing it and someone will roll over to make it happen. "attaboy, great job on giving your life away this week, thank you for the new Porsche"

How do you pull it off without your colleagues hating you?

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#110

Post by amiuba »

jacknews wrote: post #97

My boss arrived at work in a brand new lamborghini. I said "Wow that's an amazing car!" He replied "if you work hard, strive for excellence and hit your targets, l'll get another one next year!"

Haha yes, I love this joke. I've heard it before and that's how it feels.
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